I don't understand the support of Lovejoy. He has looked terrible so far, even if we try to evaluate him outside of the context of the Despres trade. It seems like he is on the ice every time a goal is scored. While his contract isn't as bad his play has looked equally as bad as Scuderi's so far. Hopefully the team has more flexibility with him and can send him to WBS if he continues to play poorly.

Murray would be more than a sweetener in a deal or we shouldn't trade him. He's worth atleast the equivlaent of a second and possible a 1st.

Jarry is the one I'd trade. I'd guess his value is still close to the 2nd we gave up for him. Jarry plus Kunitz should bring in a real top 4 d-man
- sditulli

If a GM was offering a first for Murray id do it... Jesus that would be a massive overpayment for an AHL goalie.

Point is, Murray and Jarry have more value to the organization as part of it than anything they'd get back in a trade. My guess is they return an ok prospect or a mid round pick.

Please....this is mild. Go to the Rags blog and see how they treat someone like you from another fan base.
- madmike71

Yea we have a couple vicious ones on our board.

If a GM was offering a first for Murray id do it... Jesus that would be a massive overpayment for an AHL goalie.

Point is, Murray and Jarry have more value to the organization as part of it than anything they'd get back in a trade. My guess is they return an ok prospect or a mid round pick.
- Victoro311

So you think a top goalie prospect could only get an ok prospect in return? That's bad trading. He at least could get a good prospect if its a player for player trade.

So you think a top goalie prospect could only get an ok prospect in return? That's bad trading. He at least could get a good prospect if its a player for player trade.
- Zac_O

Goalies are more volatile than any other position. That's compounded by being a prospect. That's why they are rarely taken early in drafts anymore. It's very hard to project their value going forward and they take longer to develop and longer to decline so there is rarely a rush to acquire a young goalie prospect.

So you think a top goalie prospect could only get an ok prospect in return? That's bad trading. He at least could get a good prospect if its a player for player trade.
- Zac_O

Don't think there's a lot of teams dying to get a goalie prospect right now.

If a GM was offering a first for Murray id do it... Jesus that would be a massive overpayment for an AHL goalie.

Point is, Murray and Jarry have more value to the organization as part of it than anything they'd get back in a trade. My guess is they return an ok prospect or a mid round pick.
- Victoro311

I could see Jarry being a part of a larger deal, but no way do I trade Murray. He looks too good and his value won't be high until he proves himself in the NHL.

Furthermore... If MAF goes down for an extended period does anyone feel Zatkoff is capable of stepping up long term?

So you think a top goalie prospect could only get an ok prospect in return? That's bad trading. He at least could get a good prospect if its a player for player trade.
- Zac_O

You're right. It is bad trading. That's why we shouldn't trade him. Worth more to us in the organization than anything he can bring back.

The way to view analytics is much the same way as viewing card counting on the black jack table. Counting cards doesn't guarantee that you'll win a specific hand. It actually doesn't technically guarantee that you'll come away from the table up (although if you're good at it its highly unlikely you won't). What it does is give you a better probability of winning.

People who look at analytics and think that they predict winners of games are not thinking about it correctly, whether they're pro or anti "fancy stats". What analytics have done is pinpoint more specific indications of what causes and prevents goals which allows for a deeper understanding of how specific players are deployed and how successful they are in said deployment. Thus, analytics is a team building tool that stacks the deck, or so to speak, in your favor when making the decision over which personnel to employ. Once those players hit the ice, however, it's very silly to analyze a specific game in terms of analytics.
- Victoro311

This is waaaay too late for me to be answering this (that's why I haven't above but will in the morning), but do cards play with injury? Do cards play with cards that are playing with injury? Just a clue for you to get ready. I liked the weather comparison better. More clouds = more rain.

More to come.......

I could see Jarry being a part of a larger deal, but no way do I trade Murray. He looks too good and his value won't be high until he proves himself in the NHL.

Furthermore... If MAF goes down for an extended period does anyone feel Zatkoff is capable of stepping up long term?
- madmike71

I can see how they'd be very attractive sweetness but no trade in which they are the center piece will be good for us.

This is waaaay too late for me to be answering this (that's why I haven't above but will in the morning), but do cards play with injury? Do cards play with cards that are playing with injury? Just a clue for you to get ready. I liked the weather comparison better. More clouds = more rain.

More to come.......
- Aussiepenguin

E4. This is very exciting.

E4. This is very exciting.
- Victoro311

Yes indeed!

I'm going back to bed where I belong & hopefully my little girl can to.

Goalies are more volatile than any other position. That's compounded by being a prospect. That's why they are rarely taken early in drafts anymore. It's very hard to project their value going forward and they take longer to develop and longer to decline so there is rarely a rush to acquire a young goalie prospect.
- jfkst1

I completly see what you're saying. But I guess in this hypothetical situation Murray continues to kick major butt in the AHL. And if at halfway through the season and he leads all stats for AHL goalies I find it hard to believe certain teams wouldn't be interested.

Yes indeed!

I'm going back to bed where I belong & hopefully my little girl can to.
- Aussiepenguin

Oh dear God, you're a father?

I don't understand the support of Lovejoy. He has looked terrible so far, even if we try to evaluate him outside of the context of the Despres trade. It seems like he is on the ice every time a goal is scored. While his contract isn't as bad his play has looked equally as bad as Scuderi's so far. Hopefully the team has more flexibility with him and can send him to WBS if he continues to play poorly.
- PghPens668771

It's not obsession, it's just the sad state of reality considering the other options for D that the Pens currently have. We have agreed to call Lovejoy "serviceable".

Send whom to WBS? Lovejoy? No freaking way ... not with the current corps.

I completly see what you're saying. But I guess in this hypothetical situation Murray continues to kick major butt in the AHL. And if at halfway through the season and he leads all stats for AHL goalies I find it hard to believe certain teams wouldn't be interested.
- Zac_O

If Murray/Jarry reach a level of having so much value that they can garner a good return, the Pens shouldn't be trading them anyway. And if the org. believes they can win with either of those two, I'd rather they traded the more expensive aging proven starter in Fleury than a capable cheap improving goalie in Murray/Jarry.

I completly see what you're saying. But I guess in this hypothetical situation Murray continues to kick major butt in the AHL. And if at halfway through the season and he leads all stats for AHL goalies I find it hard to believe certain teams wouldn't be interested.
- Zac_O

They'd be interested but they wouldn't be interested in giving up much. Just look what Jones and Talbot got and to a lesser extent Lehner. Jones and Talbot were super successful backups and didn't get too much. Neither did Nuevrith.

Unrelated: when can we release Sestito? He's invisible unless committing an attorcious penalty.

Unrelated: when can we release Sestito? He's invisible unless committing an attorcious penalty.
- Victoro311

Both Sestito and Gonch are playing tonight. Here is to hoping that they will be released come Thursday morning.

If Murray/Jarry reach a level of having so much value that they can garner a good return, the Pens shouldn't be trading them anyway. And if the org. believes they can win with either of those two, I'd rather they traded the more expensive aging proven starter in Fleury than a capable cheap improving goalie in Murray/Jarry.
- jfkst1

In my opinion flower is locked as the penguins starter for 3-4 more years. If Murray proves he's better and beats him for the job I'll be happy. As any fan should be happy for an improvement happens on the team. But as you said they develop erratically so I won't plan on it. But I believe by the time Murray is ready to take the starting job (if ever) flower will be done with his contract leaving no option to trade.

Bonino - tonight will be his first game, right? I am curious to see how and what he does on the ice.

They'd be interested but they wouldn't be interested in giving up much. Just look what Jones and Talbot got and to a lesser extent Lehner. Jones and Talbot were super successful backups and didn't get too much. Neither did Nuevrith.

Unrelated: when can we release Sestito? He's invisible unless committing an attorcious penalty.
- Victoro311

Also unrelated, did zlobin even play last night? Don't remember hearing his name or seeing him.

In my opinion flower is locked as the penguins starter for 3-4 more years. If Murray proves he's better and beats him for the job I'll be happy. As any fan should be happy for an improvement happens on the team. But as you said they develop erratically so I won't plan on it. But I believe by the time Murray is ready to take the starting job (if ever) flower will be done with his contract leaving no option to trade.
- Zac_O

I hope they don't have such a rigid mindset. We should have a good idea on Murray's projected value within two years as he is already going to be the starter in WBS. He'll likely get a few NHL games this year (at the end of the season after the Pens have already clinched the Pres. trophy ). He should be getting looked at as the regular backup next season if all progresses well. Fleury would still have two years left on his deal at 32 with 20 teams in the league Pens could trade him to. He could also be claimed in an entry draft if Pens protected Murray instead.

Also unrelated, did zlobin even play last night? Don't remember hearing his name or seeing him.
- Zac_O

Pretty sure he was scratched last second for Sestito. I think he's done for now. Back to WBS on the first round of cuts along with Uher, Porter, and pretty much every defenseman not named Clendening, Dumoulin, or Pouliot.

I hope they don't have such a rigid mindset. We should have a good idea on Murray's projected value within two years as he is already going to be the starter in WBS. He'll likely get a few NHL games this year (at the end of the season after the Pens have already clinched the Pres. trophy ). He should be getting looked at as the backup next season if all progressed well. Fleury would still have two years left on his deal at 32 with 20 teams in the league Pens could trade him to. He could also be claimed in an entry draft if Pens protected Murray instead.
- jfkst1

(frank) the entry draft. We don't need to expand. Just move Arizona to a different part of the Mohave and the Panthers to QC. I'm actually super pissed about the expansion.

I hope they don't have such a rigid mindset. We should have a good idea on Murray's projected value within two years as he is already going to be the starter in WBS. He'll likely get a few NHL games this year (at the end of the season after the Pens have already clinched the Pres. trophy ). He should be getting looked at as the regular backup next season if all progresses well. Fleury would still have two years left on his deal at 32 with 20 teams in the league Pens could trade him to. He could also be claimed in an entry draft if Pens protected Murray instead.
- jfkst1

You can protect two ggoalies. And I don't think you can take players from the AHL in the expansion draft.