yeah he gave reasons and not buying it as the only reasons. it just doesn't add up as hartnell is far superior to umberger.

it was a terrible trade. end of story.
- rinaldo

That's the point, it's not the end of the story. Factors for why the trade was made have not played out yet. If this deal was made prior to 2005, you'd be correct. The deal was made in the cap era, and trades are more than just about player for player in some cases. This is one of those deals

yeah he gave reasons and not buying it as the only reasons. it just doesn't add up as hartnell is far superior to umberger.

it was a terrible trade. end of story.
- rinaldo

So if hartnell gets hurt and Umberger pots 15 while playing solid two way hockey was the trade terrible?

Does the trade really matter if Columbus and Philadelphia don't win the cup while each player is on the team?

Does that trade matter if hartnell begins to struggle the remaining two years of his deal and the Flyers are moving forward as they have new cap space to begin contending and building a better roster as Umberger isn't there anymore.

I pretty much agree. But I will say that the overall mix of players and skill sets still needs to be re-balanced. They're too heavy at Center and RW. I'd be ok with a trade to acquire a young LW if it meant moving a young prospect. Those trades are not always easy to come by.

I'd also be ok with a Ville Leino type trade to acquire a bona fide LW - a pick for a struggling player with some potential....high risk, high reward. I suggested Magnus Paarjarvi a week or two ago. I bet STL would trade him for a 4th or 5th at this point. Maybe he's not the right guy....but someone like that.
- TheGreat28

I still think you see either B. Schenn or Gagner, if he comes out and plays well, traded for a legit top 6 LW.

So if hartnell gets hurt and Umberger pots 15 while playing solid two way hockey was the trade terrible?

Does the trade really matter if Columbus and Philadelphia don't win the cup while each player is on the team?

Does that trade matter if hartnell begins to struggle the remaining two years of his deal and the Flyers are moving forward as they have new cap space to begin contending and building a better roster as Umberger isn't there anymore.
- J35Bacher

if if if.....

it is offered a an excuse to let him off the hook a bit imo and trying to rationalize the trade. you disagree. ok. I don't agree with that reasoning.

what hasn't been played out? the draft pick they got back?
- rinaldo

Not trying to rationalize, it's looking at all the factors of why the trade was made. The fact that your asking that question at the end, tells me that you're not considering all the variables in the equation you're using to look at the trade.

Seek help for reading comprehension
- PhillySportsGuy

Per Philly sports Guy

I agree. The majority of Hextall's moves are going to be a " wait and see". I will see I like how he has approached the draft and free agency. And with that, I agree SuperSchennBros. B+

Talking of a possible high reward player, I know he doesn't play left wing which doesn't exactly help us but what would it take from our current roster to get a player like Anthony Mantha. didn't have the best year in the AHL and management was openly dissapointed with him but the kid has some serious upside.
- ClaudeFather

Might be tough with Blashill taking over. Kind of like Couturier and Schenn. Probably want more time with Mantha before moving him so quick. Maybe at the deadline if both playeers are just not showing signs of progression but still feel doubtful.

I give him a B+ because of the drafting in patience but I think he should have tried to add by mid season last season to keep us in the playoff hunt.
- SuperSchennBros

Try again. That would have been a bad idea.

No trade is going to keep you from getting your ass kicked by the league's worst when the playoffs are on the line.

That's the point, it's not the end of the story. Factors for why the trade was made have not played out yet. If this deal was made prior to 2005, you'd be correct. The deal was made in the cap era, and trades are more than just about player for player in some cases. This is one of those deals
- MJL

hartnells cap hit was very much in line for a player of his ilk. I believe you wouldn't have had any issue moving him later than when they did and for a better package as he hasn't shown any significant decline at all.

do you believe they would have had a hard time moving him later in the year or even this summer?

He did.

He hired a new coach. He is hoping Hakstoll can get Couturier and Schenn to take another step forward.

I would rather give them every chance to succeed, considering they are only 24 and 22, then trade them early and see them blossom somewhere else.
- J35Bacher

Make a roster move mid season with players not playing up to their potential so the team stays in the playoff hunt. Sure a draft pick here and there might get used but you can always reaquire them. A guy like Matt Read in the right deal I believe brings a return that shakes up the group and helps the team at the same time, especially if he is only hurting the team at times.

it is offered a an excuse to let him off the hook a bit imo and trying to rationalize the trade. you disagree. ok. I don't agree with that reasoning.

what hasn't been played out? the draft pick they got back?
- rinaldo

JSaq never gave his opinion about the deal. He simply gave reasoning as to why the deal was made. Even prefaced it by saying it was a bad hockey trade. Are you Retaldo?

Per Philly sports Guy

I agree. The majority of Hextall's moves are going to be a " wait and see". I will see I like how he has approached the draft and free agency. And with that, I agree SuperSchennBros. B+
- MatveiDmitrii

I don't think a B+ is being unfair and I think you can grade someone after one year.

if if if.....
- rinaldo

Correct.


You don't take into account any variables into your argument. You took one season and determined it was a terrible deal.

This trade had more to do with future for the Flyers where it was more about present for the Bluejackets.

Not trying to rationalize, it's looking at all the factors of why the trade was made. The fact that your asking that question at the end, tells me that you're not considering all the variables in the equation you're using to look at the trade.
- MJL

I am considering all variables. I don't believe the cap issue down the line was a factor in this trade. that is my opinion. you don't trade top line wingers for garbage and cap relief 2 years early.

Everyone talks about hextall and patience. did he show patience in this trade?

I think there was more to it and I also don't believe they shopped hartnell around to other teams. you can disagree and that's fine.

it is offered a an excuse to let him off the hook a bit imo and trying to rationalize the trade. you disagree. ok. I don't agree with that reasoning.

what hasn't been played out? the draft pick they got back?
- rinaldo

The trade was made for 2 reasons.

1. Hartnell was not going along with the plan when it came to off season workouts and staying in shape. As a popular veteran in the locker room, this set a bad example to the younger players on the team. By moving Hartnell, Hextall quickly made it clear to everyone, that it will be his way or the highway.

2. Future cap flexibility. The Flyers will likely buy Umberger out after this season. That will leave them with a cap hit of 1.6 million in 16-17 and 1.5 in 17-18. Since he will likely be replaced on the roster with a young player on an ELC, that will give them instant cap savings. Hartnell, OTOH, is still on the hook for a cap hit of 4.75 million through the 18-19 season. History has shown, that usually players like Hartnell, who is 33 years old, quickly start to go downhill as they hit their mid 30s.

As many have pointed out before, this trade was never made with 14-15 or even 15-16 in mind. It was made for the purpose of sending a message and for smart cap management going forward.

Correct.


You don't take into account any variables into your argument. You took one season and determined it was a terrible deal.

This trade had more to do with future for the Flyers where it was more about present for the Bluejackets.
- J35Bacher

if you say so.

it was a terrible deal. you traded a top line winger for nothing. nada. my bad 2 years of cap relief 3 years down the line.

hartnells cap hit was very much in line for a player of his ilk. I believe you wouldn't have had any issue moving him later than when they did and for a better package as he hasn't shown any significant decline at all.

do you believe they would have had a hard time moving him later in the year or even this summer?
- rinaldo

So it's not possible that he could show signs of decline in the future? I don't disagree that using hindsight, they could've waited a little bit. I even think there is some merit to stating that they could've gotten a better player in return. That is again, hindsight. I don't believe that Hextall thought that Umberger was going to be that ineffective. I think that Hextall thought that he'd be getting back a solid 3rd line winger who could chip in 15 goals or so, and play well on the PK and defensively. That still could happen if Umberger can get healthy.

None of that changes the reasoning for why the deal was made. Part of the deal was about what the Flyers could do in the future, which has not played out yet. Which is again why it's not the "end of the story" as you posted. Far from it.

hartnells cap hit was very much in line for a player of his ilk. I believe you wouldn't have had any issue moving him later than when they did and for a better package as he hasn't shown any significant decline at all.

do you believe they would have had a hard time moving him later in the year or even this summer?
- rinaldo

Yes.

He had a NTC.

That limits your negotiating if he says he will only go certain places.

Also Hartnell does have a limted skill set. If he isn't in your top 6, he doesn't bring much else like PK work or stong defensvie play at his cap hit.

JSaq never gave his opinion about the deal. He simply gave reasoning as to why the deal was made. Even prefaced it by saying it was a bad hockey trade. Are you Retaldo?
- PhillySportsGuy

yeah and I have given my opinion strap job.

Make a roster move mid season with players not playing up to their potential so the team stays in the playoff hunt. Sure a draft pick here and there might get used but you can always reaquire them. A guy like Matt Read in the right deal I believe brings a return that shakes up the group and helps the team at the same time, especially if he is only hurting the team at times.
- SuperSchennBros

But he was hurt. He would have been sold low.

Now I am all for moving Read in the right deal but i would rather have him playing better that the value coming back is better.

I am considering all variables. I don't believe the cap issue down the line was a factor in this trade. that is my opinion. you don't trade top line wingers for garbage and cap relief 2 years early.

Everyone talks about hextall and patience. did he show patience in this trade?

I think there was more to it and I also don't believe they shopped hartnell around to other teams. you can disagree and that's fine.
- rinaldo

You can have that opinion, but it's wrong. It's definitely one of the key variables in the trade.

The latter is just speculation on your part.

So to summarize why I think your opinion on the trade is off base. Dismissing or refusing to consider the future cap gains, and pure speculation.

Yes.

He had a NTC.

That limits your negotiating if he says he will only go certain places.

Also Hartnell does have a limted skill set. If he isn't in your top 6, he doesn't bring much else like PK work or stong defensvie play at his cap hit.
- J35Bacher

ok. I disagree. he could have been moved rather easily.

yeah and I have given my opinion strap job.
- rinaldo

Define strap job?

I don't think a B+ is being unfair and I think you can grade someone after one year.
- SuperSchennBros

I agree. If had made some bone head moves at the draft, than it would have been worse. I think at the end of the day, people in Philadelphia have trust in Hextall. Hence the high grade.