There's a huge difference between taking away Giroux's passing ability and taking away Matt Reads defensive acumen. Without Matt Reads defensive acumen, he is a 4th line forward or AHL tweener.

If Giroux were just an ok passer instead of being one of the best in the world, he's still a second line center on every team in the league and easily a 1st line center on a few others.

But again, you'll twist anything anyone says to make them sound stupid and for you to sound right. Have fun with that the rest of the day, you've exhausted me enough.
- mochoson

But MJL is right, you cant discount the very part that makes a player what he is and then say he is average without it. Every player is average if you take away the thing that makes them stand out.

I love the way Raffl plays the game, he goes all out, every moment of every shift. If he gets regular time on the 2nd pp unit, there is no doubt in my mind, that if he stays healthy, he can put up 25 goals and 40 points.
- BiggE

Are you sure?

What are you talking about? I haven't said this once. The above quote is from the previous page where I have him pegged for the 2nd line?

Raffl is also much younger than Read and their roles on this team are not comparable.
- mochoson

Actually, apologies offered. I attributed that incorrectly to you.

I completely agree with MJL on this one. You really are undervaluing Read. Even without his defensive ability, he totaled 47 points in his first year here. And his point about taking away G's passing and playmaking ability was fair. You can have your cake and eat it too. At the end of the day if we're talking about a player's value to the team, you have to consider his entire skillset, not pick and choose skills to make your point.
- TheGreat28

What concerns me a bit about Read is the following
11-12 .594 pts/gm
12-13 .571 pts/gm
13-14 .533 pts/gm
14-15 .375 pts/gm

Even if last year was an aberration due to injury, his points per game has declined slightly every year. This is not a good sign for a player quickly approaching his 30th birthday.

While star players often play very well far into their 30s, undersized solid/good players usually do not. It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest to see a guy like Read traded before the end of his current contract.

Are you sure?
- ob18

Reasonably.

Who exactly has stated or argued that Read is an elite player at ES or any other metric you want use, compared to the rest of the league?
- MJL

You did

There are 30 teams in the League. Teams play 12 forwards, if he's ranked 99th overall among forwards overall in ES scoring, that puts him in the upper echelon of 2nd line forwards in the NHL, in ES scoring.
- MJL

Or, are we now going to argue semantics, and that there is a difference between what I call elite and what you call the "upper echelon"? This is the only point you've made all day that I couldn't care less about.

Other than the above point, we have literally the same exact opinion on Read as a player. The exact same. You somehow decipher from my unwillingness to accept this stat you present as relevant equates to me undervaluing Read. Then yes, I undervalue him. Whatever.

I don't want to speculate because I want to use the facts to form my opinion, and not use speculation to form it.

Neither you or I can possibly know what the Flyers cap situation will be, or what Read will be making 3 years from now. You're using a generality and applying it to Read and his future with the Flyers. Exactly what I'm talking about.
I didn't ignore your entire argument, I simply think you're wrong, and haven't made a sound argument.

My argument as to why Read is a trade target is devoid of facts? His salary isn't a fact? The salary cap isn't a fact? The money the Flyers have committed, especially to forwards during the duration of Reads contract isn't a fact?

Im sorry I'm using common sense to put the rest of the pieces together, but to say my logic is devoid of facts is simply incorrect. We disagree that Matt Read is a trade candidate.

The debate ends there. We are repeating ourselves at this point.

What concerns me a bit about Read is the following
11-12 .594 pts/gm
12-13 .571 pts/gm
13-14 .533 pts/gm
14-15 .375 pts/gm

Even if last year was an aberration due to injury, his points per game has declined slightly every year. This is not a good sign for a player quickly approaching his 30th birthday.

While star players often play very well far into their 30s, undersized solid/good players usually do not. It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest to see a guy like Read traded before the end of his current contract.
- BiggE

You are speculating! Reads first 3 seasons are all negligible declines, and last year he was hurt! Plenty of good players bounce back at age 30

(I saved MJL the time of responding)

edit: I will reiterate for the 69th time, I do think Read will bounce back.

Actually, apologies offered. I attributed that incorrectly to you.
- TheGreat28

No worries

I think you're opinion on Read is colored by his salary. If he were making Raffl's money, which he was up until the last contract, I wonder if your opinion might be different.

Earlier in the thread, multiple posters said Raffl will be in line for 3 or 4 million dollar deal if he has a similar year as last year. That will put him in Read territory. And dollar for dollar, Read provides a lot more at that salary level. The only benefit at that point Raffl has is age.

To your specific point, Raffl does get a little bit of a pass because it was his first year in NA. Some other players have performed better first year here, some others have performed worse. But that aside, Read's first year as an unsigned FA was even better than Raffl's.

And if you are using the adjustment to a different culture as a reason, Read performed pretty damn well in SWE during the lockout.
- TheGreat28

Absolutely. Raffl, beyond exceeding expectations and working his ass off on the ice, is a valuable asset specifically because his performance far exceeds his cap hit. Saying that, I'm of the opinion that can still be the case if his hit stays reasonable (assuming he gets extended in Philly), say the mid $2mm range, but if he goes beyond 3 or even close to 4, he loses a lot of value unless he starts putting up 50+ points.

Although I think the idea that Read "provides a lot more" (assuming similar cap hits in next season) could be debated.

I can't speak to it myself, I just know the adjustment from the larger European rinks to the smaller North American rinks apparently takes some getting used to, as well as the physicality of the game (in part to rink size).

Regarding Read going to Europe - I could be wrong, but you almost never hear of an adjustment for a pro player going from NA to Europe. But again, I can't really say since it's nothing I've ever done.

What concerns me a bit about Read is the following
11-12 .594 pts/gm
12-13 .571 pts/gm
13-14 .533 pts/gm
14-15 .375 pts/gm

Even if last year was an aberration due to injury, his points per game has declined slightly every year. This is not a good sign for a player quickly approaching his 30th birthday.

While star players often play very well far into their 30s, undersized solid/good players usually do not. It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest to see a guy like Read traded before the end of his current contract.
- BiggE

Playing Devil's Advocate, starting in 13-14 he was paired pretty much full time with Couturier. So did either the role or Couturier's offensive struggles affect Read's scoring in 13-14?

Consider also, the line overall played better when Schenn joined in the last handful of games vs. Simmonds.

You are speculating! Reads first 3 seasons are all negligible declines, and last year he was hurt! Plenty of good players bounce back at age 30

(I saved MJL the time of responding)

edit: I will reiterate for the 69th time, I do think Read will bounce back.
- mochoson

I think he will bounce back to, but, when it comes to managing assets in a cap league, he is a prime target to be traded during the next couple of years.

Playing Devil's Advocate, starting in 13-14 he was paired pretty much full time with Couturier. So did either the role or Couturier's offensive struggles affect Read's scoring in 13-14?

Consider also, the line overall played better when Schenn joined in the last handful of games vs. Simmonds.
- TheGreat28

Fair points. I'm just saying that usually, not always, but usually, non star forwards begin to decline as they hit 30.

Absolutely. Raffl, beyond exceeding expectations and working his ass off on the ice, is a valuable asset specifically because his performance far exceeds his cap hit. Saying that, I'm of the opinion that can still be the case if his hit stays reasonable (assuming he gets extended in Philly), say the mid $2mm range, but if he goes beyond 3 or even close to 4, he loses a lot of value unless he starts putting up 50+ points.

Although I think the idea that Read "provides a lot more" (assuming similar cap hits in next season) could be debated.

I can't speak to it myself, I just know the adjustment from the larger European rinks to the smaller North American rinks apparently takes some getting used to, as well as the physicality of the game (in part to rink size).

Regarding Read going to Europe - I could be wrong, but you almost never hear of an adjustment for a pro player going from NA to Europe. But again, I can't really say since it's nothing I've ever done.
- wolfhounds

All fair points. I personally question whether Raffl can put up those kind of numbers. He just doesn't seem to be enough of a playmaker, compared to a true 1st line LW like Hartsy. I look at some of the guys that have played with Crosby the last couple of years and their overall production. Raffl realistically should be able to get closer to those levels playing with G and Jake.

But at the end of the day, at 2 or 2.5 million, I'm comfortable with him even getting 20 goals and 35-40 points. More than that, I consider other options.

And truth be told, I think Read is probably not part of the long term solution just because of his age and the timing of when they'll be realistic contenders.

I think we really need to draft LWs early and often next year.

Fair points. I'm just saying that usually, not always, but usually, non star forwards begin to decline as they hit 30.
- BiggE

That is equally true. And as I just said on my last post, as much as I like Read right now, even with the down year, I think the team won't truly content for another couple of years and at that point he very well may be gone.

This is what I've been saying all morning, minus the bold.

He was injured. Fine, sure, great. He's still about to be 30, and has never eclipsed 50 points. He's an ok top 6 forward, and an "elite middle 6 forward", if there were such a thing. That's it.

If Read wasn't so versatile and above average defensively, he's a dime a dozen player. If there's a tier of players above "role-players", that's the tier Matt Read is in.
- mochoson

Read himself stated he was pain free in early January. If we take that as hockey player speak to mean his pain was reduced quite a bit from the original injury in November, then one would have expected a bit more from him the 2nd half of the season.

I guess my point is, sometimes players just have off seasons. It happens. (Look at G's 21 game goal drought from 2013.) Add the injury on top, and Read definitely gets a pass. All that being said, he needs to deliver this upcoming season. If that happens, and other things click for the Flyers, it could be fun watching games again.

Not hockey related but wow!

http://www.nfl.com/news/s...-weeks-after-sucker-punch



- MBFlyerfan

Omg

What concerns me a bit about Read is the following
11-12 .594 pts/gm
12-13 .571 pts/gm
13-14 .533 pts/gm
14-15 .375 pts/gm

Even if last year was an aberration due to injury, his points per game has declined slightly every year. This is not a good sign for a player quickly approaching his 30th birthday.

While star players often play very well far into their 30s, undersized solid/good players usually do not. It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest to see a guy like Read traded before the end of his current contract.
- BiggE

The point percentage difference in the first 3 years is relatively small. Not concerned about it. I give him the benefit of the doubt for last year due to the injury.

All fair points. I personally question whether Raffl can put up those kind of numbers. He just doesn't seem to be enough of a playmaker, compared to a true 1st line LW like Hartsy. I look at some of the guys that have played with Crosby the last couple of years and their overall production. Raffl realistically should be able to get closer to those levels playing with G and Jake.

But at the end of the day, at 2 or 2.5 million, I'm comfortable with him even getting 20 goals and 35-40 points. More than that, I consider other options.

And truth be told, I think Read is probably not part of the long term solution just because of his age and the timing of when they'll be realistic contenders.

I think we really need to draft LWs early and often next year.
- TheGreat28

Agreed. I like Raffl a lot because of his value and underdog status, but there's definitely something a little awkward or sluggish (decision-making) about him at times on the ice. He's just not fancy or smooth at all, and I'd also be hesitant giving him more than $2.5 for what he's doing.

That being said, we've watched him improve quite a bit these past 2 seasons, so hopefully he's got room to get better still.

I skimmed through the last number of pages but a Raffl vs. Schenn debate is interesting but I feel many overlook the reasoning behind any struggles Schenn might have on the top line.

Brayden Schenn is a natural center who was asked to play wing with two of the very best talents in the league. Hartnell is best suited away from the puck, crashing the net and taping pucks into the net as a natural winger. Raffl isn't as physical but is capable of the same game. Seeing how Raffl's assists are down, I believe him not to be great with the puck or likely to set up plays. Schenn is different. Schenn is OK with the puck and more effective when handling the puck and not being a support player but being apart of the support. On a Couturier, Read and Schenn line, I think all three players aren't expected to be the guy of impact.

The point percentage difference in the first 3 years is relatively small. Not concerned about it. I give him the benefit of the doubt for last year due to the injury.
- MJL

You are speculating! Reads first 3 seasons are all negligible declines, and last year he was hurt! Plenty of good players bounce back at age 30

(I saved MJL the time of responding)

edit: I will reiterate for the 69th time, I do think Read will bounce back.
- mochoson

I'm a shaman

You did


There are 30 teams in the League. Teams play 12 forwards, if he's ranked 99th overall among forwards overall in ES scoring, that puts him in the upper echelon of 2nd line forwards in the NHL, in ES scoring.
- MJL


- mochoson

You're incorrect, I never labeled Read as an elite player or used the term elite to describe Read as a player.

Or, are we now going to argue semantics, and that there is a difference between what I call elite and what you call the "upper echelon"? This is the only point you've made all day that I couldn't care less about.

Other than the above point, we have literally the same exact opinion on Read as a player. The exact same. You somehow decipher from my unwillingness to accept this stat you present as relevant equates to me undervaluing Read. Then yes, I undervalue him. Whatever.


- mochoson

No there isn't a difference, which is my exact point. Whether you look at RW point totals at ES, or forwards as a whole, it put's Read in the same spot, which was the point I was making.
We don't have the same exact opinion on Read as a player. In my opinion, I think he's a much better player than you give him credit for.

My argument as to why Read is a trade target is devoid of facts? His salary isn't a fact? The salary cap isn't a fact? The money the Flyers have committed, especially to forwards during the duration of Reads contract isn't a fact?

Im sorry I'm using common sense to put the rest of the pieces together, but to say my logic is devoid of facts is simply incorrect. We disagree that Matt Read is a trade candidate.

The debate ends there. We are repeating ourselves at this point.

- mochoson

Read's salary is what it is now, not what it will be when he current deal runs out, which is what you're speculating on.
You're entire opinion on why Read will be a trade candidate in the future is speculative, that's my point. Not that it's impossible for Read to be a trade candidate in the future, just that it's not a fact that he will be.
You made a blanket statement that there is no new contract for Read in the future. If need be, I'll link that.

I'm a shaman
- mochoson

You got the part about speculating wrong. BigE said that he wouldn't be surprised if Read was a trade candidate in the future. Which is quite different from he will be a trade candidate in the future.

I'm a shaman
- mochoson

edit: this is why I don't bother engaging him, it's not worth the time. He makes good points now and then, but the incessant quibbling over semantics and the overwhelming need to be right are just exhausting.

Not hockey related but wow!

http://www.nfl.com/news/s...-weeks-after-sucker-punch



- MBFlyerfan

Jets gonna Jet

You got the part about speculating wrong. BigE said that he wouldn't be surprised if Read was a trade candidate in the future. Which is quite different from he will be a trade candidate in the future.
- MJL

The only way I'm trading Matt Read is if we get as good or better back somehow. Based on what it took to get TJ Oshie for Washington, I would have made that deal if Read was going the other way like Troy Brouwer did.