You may be right about Laughton. I guess I just see him as a high end defensive player who will chip in 15-18 goals while playing solid 2-way hockey.
- MBFlyerfan

Sounds about right.

My opinion is that if Read is healthy last season and puts up his customary numbers, the Flyers are fighting for a playoff spot up until the very end. That is how important I think he is to this team.
- MBFlyerfan

Totally agree, and it's not just the production. He also wasn't an offensive threat for a lot of games, that he normally is. Helping to carry play and transition from defense to offense.

My opinion is that if Read is healthy last season and puts up his customary numbers, the Flyers are fighting for a playoff spot up until the very end. That is how important I think he is to this team.
- MBFlyerfan

Maybe, though probably not. The loss of Timonen coupled with the early injury to Coburn really left them with a mediocre group of dmen. A healthy Matt Read, maybe moves them from 84 to 90-94 points, but they still likely miss the playoffs. The only difference is instead of snagging Provorov with the 7th pick, they end up picking somewhere between 11-13.

I like Matt Read a lot. But he's a middle 6 forward who has probably reached the ceiling of his development, on a team with a lot of money tied up in its blueline and top forwards. And although we're getting good value on our goalies we're not pinching pennies in net either. I think we have cheap replacements for him in the system/on the roster who would be almost as good as him (guys like Laughton and Bellemare and, to a lesser extent, VDV and White)
- Coburns_Nose

Laughton is the only player you listed that has a chance to be as good or better than Read is. The other players are 4th line NHL players, and have no chance to be as good of a player as Read is, or has been.

Totally agree, and it's not just the production. He also wasn't an offensive threat for a lot of games, that he normally is. Helping to carry play and transition from defense to offense.
- MJL

Plus I also believe it affected his penalty killing, and he is arguably the #2 or #3 best PK guy on the team. (Coots is #1 imo)

That's essentially what they all are.

edit:

EA SPORTS NHL Legacy Edition brings together the most popular modes and award-winning gameplay features from nine years of NHL hockey. Featuring updated rosters and authentic schedules, it’s the perfect experience for fans looking to get that complete hockey fix on Xbox 360 or PlayStation 3.

AND authentic schedules!?? Take my money!
- Streit2ThePoint

I'm actually more inclined to buy it because I thought the nhl gameplay was good in 15 and you never know if it will be from year to year. It is a farce though that they don't discount the game

Maybe, though probably not. The loss of Timonen coupled with the early injury to Coburn really left them with a mediocre group of dmen. A healthy Matt Read, maybe moves them from 84 to 90-94 points, but they still likely miss the playoffs. The only difference is instead of snagging Provorov with the 7th pick, they end up picking somewhere between 11-13.
- BiggE

I didn't say they make the playoffs. My point is that he has his hand so many different aspects of team success from goal scoring to penalty killing, that they would have been in it a lot longer than they were.

- Pixote Andolini

(frank)ing Philly pans

If Read wasn't so versatile and above average defensively, he's a dime a dozen player. If there's a tier of players above "role-players", that's the tier Matt Read is in.
- mochoson

Seriously? If Giroux wasn't so good of a passer and playmaker, he's a dime a dozen player! What kind of logic is this? Remove key attributes from the player, and then say see, he's a dime a dozen player. I have to ask, similar to saying there no deal for Read in the future, are we dealing in reality or fantasy?

I'm actually more inclined to buy it because I thought the nhl gameplay was good in 15 and you never know if it will be from year to year. It is a farce though that they don't discount the game
- Just5

They should discount it if it's the same gameplay/graphics as NHL 15.

There are 30 teams in the League. Teams play 12 forwards, if he's ranked 99th overall among forwards overall in ES scoring, that puts him in the upper echelon of 2nd line forwards in the NHL, in ES scoring.
- MJL

1 season. Wanna know what else he did for 1 season? Play hurt and produce nowhere close to the same numbers. We've now thoroughly discussed nearly 66% of his NHL career to death. I get it.

The overall point I've made is that based on all your posts on Read, I think you undervalue him as a player.
Secondly, I'm not trying to convince you that he's not a trade candidate. That would be a waste of time. I'm personally not playing fantasy hockey here, or trying to look into a crystal ball. I'm simply stating why I think Read is a valuable player, and why I think trading him may not be a great idea, currently.

Secondly, if we want to deal in fantasy and hypotheticals, I can make a case for every player in the league being a trade candidate in the future. So why bother with that?

It's realistic expectations based on our teams salary cap structure and what we know about the player and the rest the organization. By pointing out its all speculative, which is blatantly obvious, you've just ignored my entire argument. That's fine if you don't want to speculate also, but don't discount my entire argument just because you don't want to speculate also.

You don't want to speculate because everything I said makes perfect sense. Responding with "well, Matt Read is a good player. A team will keep a good player regardless of cap space and roster spots". If you believe this to be true for most 32 going on 33 year old, middle six forwards, then I don't know why I'm even talking to you.

I agree, we both can have different opinions. The difference is that I've used facts to support my opinion, where as in my opinion, you have not. You've only used speculation. I've also used the facts to support my opinion that you underrate Read as a player, where as you haven't offerend any concrete facts to support why I over-rate Read as a player.
- MJL

You can't have "an opinion" as to whether I've used facts or not. Have I used facts or not?

What have I speculated? That Read could be a trade candidate? Yes, that is something I very clearly "speculated" and never once claimed would definitely happen.

So again, I'm confused. You're using facts to prove to me that I under-value read as a player? Because I refuse to reference the fact that he was in the top-100 in even strength scoring in 13-14? Then yes, I undervalue Read as a player in your opinion. I do not consider him a top six forward capable of consistently producing elite even strength scoring compared to the rest of the league.

That's essentially what they all are.

edit:

EA SPORTS NHL Legacy Edition brings together the most popular modes and award-winning gameplay features from nine years of NHL hockey. Featuring updated rosters and authentic schedules, it’s the perfect experience for fans looking to get that complete hockey fix on Xbox 360 or PlayStation 3.

AND authentic schedules!?? Take my money!
- Streit2ThePoint

Does the regular version only bring together the least popular gameplay features?

"Now with more menus!"

It's realistic expectations based on our teams salary cap structure and what we know about the player and the rest the organization. By pointing out its all speculative, which is blatantly obvious, you've just ignored my entire argument. That's fine if you don't want to speculate also, but don't discount my entire argument just because you don't want to speculate also.

You don't want to speculate because everything I said makes perfect sense. Responding with "well, Matt Read is a good player. A team will keep a good player regardless of cap space and roster spots". If you believe this to be true for most 32 going on 33 year old, middle six forwards, then I don't know why I'm even talking to you.



You can't have "an opinion" as to whether I've used facts or not. Have I used facts or not?

What have I speculated? That Read could be a trade candidate? Yes, that is something I very clearly "speculated" and never once claimed would definitely happen.

So again, I'm confused. You're using facts to prove to me that I under-value read as a player? Because I refuse to reference the fact that he was in the top-100 in even strength scoring in 13-14? Then yes, I undervalue Read as a player in your opinion. I do not consider him a top six forward capable of consistently producing elite even strength scoring compared to the rest of the league.
- mochoson

And yet you think Michael Raffl is a first line LW based on one 28 point season.

Plus I also believe it affected his penalty killing, and he is arguably the #2 or #3 best PK guy on the team. (Coots is #1 imo)
- MBFlyerfan

I agree and I like Read a lot, but I just don't think that a healthy Matt Read alone is enough to make up the 14 points that they would have needed to make the playoffs.

Seriously? If Giroux wasn't so good of a passer and playmaker, he's a dime a dozen player! What kind of logic is this? Remove key attributes from the player, and then say see, he's a dime a dozen player. I have to ask, similar to saying there no deal for Read in the future, are we dealing in reality or fantasy?
- MJL

There's a huge difference between taking away Giroux's passing ability and taking away Matt Reads defensive acumen. Without Matt Reads defensive acumen, he is a 4th line forward or AHL tweener.

If Giroux were just an ok passer instead of being one of the best in the world, he's still a second line center on every team in the league and easily a 1st line center on a few others.

But again, you'll twist anything anyone says to make them sound stupid and for you to sound right. Have fun with that the rest of the day, you've exhausted me enough.

You can't have "an opinion" as to whether I've used facts or not. Have I used facts or not?
- mochoson

you're not the boss of him

It's realistic expectations based on our teams salary cap structure and what we know about the player and the rest the organization. By pointing out its all speculative, which is blatantly obvious, you've just ignored my entire argument. That's fine if you don't want to speculate also, but don't discount my entire argument just because you don't want to speculate also.

You don't want to speculate because everything I said makes perfect sense. Responding with "well, Matt Read is a good player. A team will keep a good player regardless of cap space and roster spots". If you believe this to be true for most 32 going on 33 year old, middle six forwards, then I don't know why I'm even talking to you.



You can't have "an opinion" as to whether I've used facts or not. Have I used facts or not?

What have I speculated? That Read could be a trade candidate? Yes, that is something I very clearly "speculated" and never once claimed would definitely happen.

So again, I'm confused. You're using facts to prove to me that I under-value read as a player? Because I refuse to reference the fact that he was in the top-100 in even strength scoring in 13-14? Then yes, I undervalue Read as a player in your opinion. I do not consider him a top six forward capable of consistently producing elite even strength scoring compared to the rest of the league.
- mochoson

Who exactly has stated or argued that Read is an elite player at ES or any other metric you want use, compared to the rest of the league?

I don't want to speculate because I want to use the facts to form my opinion, and not use speculation to form it.

Neither you or I can possibly know what the Flyers cap situation will be, or what Read will be making 3 years from now. You're using a generality and applying it to Read and his future with the Flyers. Exactly what I'm talking about.
I didn't ignore your entire argument, I simply think you're wrong, and haven't made a sound argument.

I think it's completely reasonable to take Read's injury into consideration when looking at his season last year.

I didn't say they make the playoffs. My point is that he has his hand so many different aspects of team success from goal scoring to penalty killing, that they would have been in it a lot longer than they were.
- MBFlyerfan

Oops, didn't see this response before my last post. Yeah, this I would agree with. However, in hindsight, I'm glad they finished where they did. If you have to miss the playoffs, you may as well miss big and get a better prospect. I'd have to think that just missing or being eliminated on the last day and ending up with the 14th pick would just suck.

Not hockey related but wow!

http://www.nfl.com/news/s...-weeks-after-sucker-punch

Oops, didn't see this response before my last post. Yeah, this I would agree with. However, in hindsight, I'm glad they finished where they did. If you have to miss the playoffs, you may as well miss big and get a better prospect. I'd have to think that just missing or being eliminated on the last day and ending up with the 14th pick would just suck.
- BiggE

Oh hell yeah. I feel like we won the lottery with Provorov.

Schenn-Giroux-Simmonds
Raffl-Couturier-Voracek
Read-Laughton-Gagner
Umberger-Bellemare-White

Hakstol rolls 4 lines religiously.
- mochoson

And yet you think Michael Raffl is a first line LW based on one 28 point season.
- TheGreat28

What are you talking about? I haven't said this once. The above quote is from the previous page where I have him pegged for the 2nd line?

Raffl is also much younger than Read and their roles on this team are not comparable.

There's a huge difference between taking away Giroux's passing ability and taking away Matt Reads defensive acumen. Without Matt Reads defensive acumen, he is a 4th line forward or AHL tweener.

If Giroux were just an ok passer instead of being one of the best in the world, he's still a second line center on every team in the league and easily a 1st line center on a few others.

But again, you'll twist anything anyone says to make them sound stupid and for you to sound right. Have fun with that the rest of the day, you've exhausted me enough.
- mochoson

Nothing is being twisted, it was a crazy statement. Look at what Read actually is, not what he might be if we take an attribute away from him. As I illustrated, that can be done with any player. Same as you can make a speculative argument that any player in the future might be a trade candidate. That's the entire point.

There's a huge difference between taking away Giroux's passing ability and taking away Matt Reads defensive acumen. Without Matt Reads defensive acumen, he is a 4th line forward or AHL tweener.

If Giroux were just an ok passer instead of being one of the best in the world, he's still a second line center on every team in the league and easily a 1st line center on a few others.

But again, you'll twist anything anyone says to make them sound stupid and for you to sound right. Have fun with that the rest of the day, you've exhausted me enough.
- mochoson

I completely agree with MJL on this one. You really are undervaluing Read. Even without his defensive ability, he totaled 47 points in his first year here. And his point about taking away G's passing and playmaking ability was fair. You can have your cake and eat it too. At the end of the day if we're talking about a player's value to the team, you have to consider his entire skillset, not pick and choose skills to make your point.

Oh hell yeah. I feel like we won the lottery with Provorov.
- MBFlyerfan