I guess my point is, if Phoenix and Nashville and Columbus expect more from their projected 1st line wingers, so should we, especially a guy who would be playing with G and Jake.

I think we still need to move to get a young player in the caliber of those I named, if this team is truly going to contend. Raffl would be my 2nd line guy.
- TheGreat28

I'd personally rather use cap assets towards building up the secondary lines, rather than loading all my top weapons on the first line. If Raffl can score 20 goals and play a hard nosed 2 way game, I think he's just fine as the first line LW.

Kamenev is debatable. Bittner is a no go.

I get your point, but let's say you called about Alec Martinez and the Kings wanted Sanheim or Provorov. Martinez played a top 4 role for LA and did pretty well, but is he really a clear cut top 4 guy? To me that's similar to a deal that sees Perlini or Milano dealt for Raffl
- Jsaquella

Very good analogy. And to be fair, I really never thought any of those teams would do it. And my entire line of reasoning was a bit of a counterbalance to this entire thread which seemingly equates Raffl to the G line as Renberg was to the Legion line.

I agree, both players need a playmaker. Unfortunately, they don't have one for the 2nd line, unless Gagner steps up in that role.
- MJL

If your hakstol and schenn comes to you and asks to play RW because of how comfortable it was for him and asks to take on more of puck carrying responsibility, would you cater to that? What if he says he's uncomfortable playing LW?

OK, so I was the guy who made the point. And I get it, you're an advanced analytics guy. The thing with advanced analytics...they are best used as leading indicators, not performance measures. Case in point...any statistic that suggests that Umberger's performance last year was better in any possible way than G or Jake is clearly misleading.
- TheGreat28

Stats aren't gospel, and I don't treat them as such. I study them for their flaws just as much as their strengths. Point out a stat and I'll show you some holes -- some more some less, but hey that's life. Is goals per 60 even an advanced stat?

Either way, as for Umby, I just pointed out their goals per 60 were worse than Umberger. When did I write that he performed better? He was the worst player on the team unequivocally last season. That's one stat. In every other one he failed miserably, including that stat for what it's worth. Jake and G's even strength goal numbers, in particular, left a lot to be desired. The fact they were in the same hemisphere as Umby isn't a good sign. That is, as you said, what we would term an "indicator." I only used is as such. I honestly think we are on the same page haha.

Perhaps Jake and G's even strength woes were due in part to having no one on the other side for the better part of the year that truly complemented their high level of play.

Raffl is a great value for the money plus the acquisition cost. As Bill said, he is a strong role player that can move up and down the line while still performing at a high level. I still question whether he's the best fit, short and long term, on the top line. If there were any level of competition in the entire organization, I'd say his job (on the top line) would be in jeopardy.

I really think the NHL has shifted away from the idea of having 3 stars comprise a top line. Legion of Doom lines are few and far between these days. It's about complimentary pieces. Raffl compliments them very well, so on THIS team, he's a top line LW, even if no one would call him a "First Line Talent" on his own. I think a top line in the NHL today is more about being two deep than three deep.

It's why Kane doesn't play with Toews usually; spread it around on an especially deep Chi team. Ovi and Backstrom had their rotating wheel. Pavelski/Thornton played most with Melker Karlsson. Crosby plays with no one we would call an elite player in and of themselves. Josh Bailey plays with Tavares and Okposo. I don't call Williams and Brown 1st line players but they often played with Gaborik and Kopitar. Belesky and Getzlaf/Perry. It goes on. I just think that teams today don't normally have 3 elite players on a top line. If Konecny becomes a top line talent, heck I'd rather see him play on the second line on (possibly) Coots's wing than load up on the first w/ Jake and G. I'm actually all for splitting Jake and G as a test-out.

If your hakstol and schenn comes to you and asks to play RW because of how comfortable it was for him and asks to take on more of puck carrying responsibility, would you cater to that? What if he says he's uncomfortable playing LW?
- Just5

Taking on more puck carrying responsibility isn't going to come into play. Hakstol is going to instill a system and philosophy of play, and he'll expect every player to play within that concept. I think like most coaches, Hakstol will do what he feels is best for the team, and if that matches what an individual player wants, then great. Not always possible to put every single player in the spot or position he wants to be in the most. One thing I hope that happens is that they identify a position for Schenn, and leave him there.

I really think the NHL has shifted away from the idea of having 3 stars comprise a top line. Legion of Doom lines are few and far between these days. It's about complimentary pieces. Raffl compliments them very well, so on THIS team, he's a top line LW, even if no one would call him a "First Line Talent" on his own. I think a top line in the NHL today is more about being two deep than three deep.

It's why Kane doesn't play with Toews usually; spread it around on an especially deep Chi team. Ovi and Backstrom had their rotating wheel. Pavelski/Thornton played most with Melker Karlsson. Crosby plays with no one we would call an elite player in and of themselves. Josh Bailey plays with Tavares and Okposo. I don't call Williams and Brown 1st line players but they often played with Gaborik and Kopitar. Belesky and Getzlaf/Perry. It goes on. I just think that teams today don't normally have 3 elite players on a top line. If Konecny becomes a top line talent, heck I'd rather see him play on the second line on (possibly) Coots's wing than load up on the first w/ Jake and G. I'm actually all for splitting Jake and G as a test-out.
- Mononoke

I agree 100%. Much better to have balance and scoring punch throughout the lineup, rather than having a stacked top line. I'd rather use Raffl as the top line LW, and find an offensive catalyst for the 2nd line and devote what resources I have to building a stronger overall lineup.

If your hakstol and schenn comes to you and asks to play RW because of how comfortable it was for him and asks to take on more of puck carrying responsibility, would you cater to that? What if he says he's uncomfortable playing LW?
- Just5

I'd try anything with him at this point but just stick with it. Making him RW effectively makes Simmonds a 3rd liner tho.

I wish they could pull off a Schenn for Hertl deal and get the LW/RW depth more balanced.

I'd personally rather use cap assets towards building up the secondary lines, rather than loading all my top weapons on the first line. If Raffl can score 20 goals and play a hard nosed 2 way game, I think he's just fine as the first line LW.
- MJL

A fair point. I think Konecny can be the catalyst on the 2nd line with either Schenn or Couturier. Jake and G as a pair on the 1st line, and Simmonds RW on the 3rd line. I like him better with Couturier than Schenn, so I'm looking at:

LW - G - Voracek
LW - Schenn - Konecny
LW - Couturier - Simmonds

By that point, I don't see Read here, as much as I really do like him. Maybe Aube-Kubel fills one of the spots, and Raffl another. But they clearly need at least one LW, maybe 2.

I'd try anything with him at this point but just stick with it. Making him RW effectively makes Simmonds a 3rd liner tho.

I wish they could pull off a Schenn for Hertl deal and get the LW/RW depth more balanced.
- hereticpride

How about Laughton for Rychel? Not sure he'd be the one I'd target, but he was popular trade fodder a few weeks back and would be a reasonable equivalent for Laughton.

A fair point. I think Konecny can be the catalyst on the 2nd line with either Schenn or Couturier. Jake and G as a pair on the 1st line, and Simmonds RW on the 3rd line. I like him better with Couturier than Schenn, so I'm looking at:

LW - G - Voracek
LW - Schenn - Konecny
LW - Couturier - Simmonds

By that point, I don't see Read here, as much as I really do like him. Maybe Aube-Kubel fills one of the spots, and Raffl another. But they clearly need at least one LW, maybe 2.
- TheGreat28

They definitely need an offensive catalyst to play on one of the lower lines, and LW is the obvious spot for it. Schenn, Simmonds, and even Couturier, depending on who plays with whom, would be so much better if they played with a distributor of the puck. Flyers have a lot of good forwards, but too many of the "grinder" types.

They definitely need an offensive catalyst to play on one of the lower lines, and LW is the obvious spot for it. Schenn, Simmonds, and even Couturier, depending on who plays with whom, would be so much better if they played with a distributor of the puck. Flyers have a lot of good forwards, but too many of the "grinder" types.
- MJL

My point for 3 years now. Good pieces. Bad mix.

How about Laughton for Rychel? Not sure he'd be the one I'd target, but he was popular trade fodder a few weeks back and would be a reasonable equivalent for Laughton.
- TheGreat28

I like Laughton sticking around in our depth chart. I'm much more in the boat of moving Schenn for a guy of similar age/value that is more comfortable at LW.

I like Laughton sticking around in our depth chart. I'm much more in the boat of moving Schenn for a guy of similar age/value that is more comfortable at LW.
- hereticpride

I just don't have faith in a G - Couts - Laughton middle. Not enough offense for my tastes. Schenn may not be the answer, but I feel better about G - Schenn - Couts as a starting point. If that doesn't work out I either give Konecny a shot, which worries me size wise, or I draft a center and trade Schenn at that point.

I'd personally rather use cap assets towards building up the secondary lines, rather than loading all my top weapons on the first line. If Raffl can score 20 goals and play a hard nosed 2 way game, I think he's just fine as the first line LW.
- MJL

I'm with you on that. How often are there any true "triple threats" on a first line, or any line for that matter? Maybe the triplets line, but other than that, I have trouble thinking of any off the top of my.head

I just don't have faith in a G - Couts - Laughton middle. Not enough offense for my tastes. Schenn may not be the answer, but I feel better about G - Schenn - Couts as a starting point. If that doesn't work out I either give Konecny a shot, which worries me size wise, or I draft a center and trade Schenn at that point.
- TheGreat28

Fair enough. I have the same concern which is why I'd be looking to add high skill guys on the wings of line 2. Pair Coots with Hertl and Konecny in a few years. That line would be a 200ft force.

Fair enough. I have the same concern which is why I'd be looking to add high skill guys on the wings of line 2. Pair Coots with Hertl and Konecny in a few years. That line would be a 200ft force.
- hereticpride

Who would you trade for hertl?

Who would you trade for hertl?
- benjichronic

BSchenn and maybe a pick or Hagg at most.

Not sure SJ goes for that. I'm not entirely sure what their needs are but its fair value I think.

BSchenn and maybe a pick or Hagg at most.

Not sure SJ goes for that. I'm not entirely sure what their needs are but its fair value I think.
- hereticpride

Hertl didn't exactly have a strong year last season, but I think it was effects from the knee injury. I bet SJ wants to see how he bounces back before they look to move him.

I despise salary caps, and for competitive balanced very much prefer a luxury tax. The current system doesn't really help smaller markets as much as a luxury tax would. We're seeing the start of richer teams starting to use their financial muscle to bring in top scouts, coaches and front office personnel, as well as improved facilities.

All the cap has done is ensure that Florida and Arizona will be signing guys liek Scottie Upshall to overpriced contracts and taking on guys with big cap hits at the tail end of front loaded deals
- Jsaquella

Absolutely. Well said. Couldn't agree more.

Reasonably.
- BiggE

oh

Absolutely. Well said. Couldn't agree more.
- PLindbergh31

Disagree. I like hard caps. The financial aspects to the game interests me almost as much as the play on the ice. I think the game is better for it, there is a great amount of parity in the league. Look at baseball where the cellar dwellars are routinely the small markets.

He did return full of fire, but soon tailed off. He really struggled to produce back in the AHL. Maybe he was disappointed.
- Jsaquella

Laughton had 8 points in his last 10 games for the Phantoms last season.

Not exactly video game numbers, but I'm not sure that constitutes struggling, either.

Laughton had 8 points in his last 10 games for the Phantoms last season.

Not exactly video game numbers, but I'm not sure that constitutes struggling, either.
- johndewar

For me he'll put up numbers but they won't be ones that set the world on fire or may be ones that please some people.

For me he'll put up numbers but they won't be ones that set the world on fire or may be ones that please some people.
- ob18

I don't think producing gaudy offensive numbers is something you'd project from Laughton.

I don't think producing gaudy offensive numbers is something you'd project from Laughton.
- johndewar

Nope, nobody should expect it either.