shero did a wonderful job navigating injuries and was an above average to good gm. to suggest otherwise ignores so many facts its inane. keep on hatin!

and... um... shero inherited what? crosby... and? ryan malone? a rookie MAF? ziggy palfy? bowman inherited good luck and did well with it. shero inherited bad luck and did pretty damn good.
- ChrisMS

Shero blew chunks when it came to constructing a team.

Wait, you mean the team that Bowman was assistant GM and Director of Hockey ops since 2001 he inherited...

- usethe1-2-2

Wait, you mean it's not all Shero's fault but rather the fault of the Pens 100 assistant GMs and the Director of Hockey Ops? Whew, you almost had a point there. You can't have it both ways.

shero did a wonderful job navigating injuries and was an above average to good gm. to suggest otherwise ignores so many facts its inane. keep on hatin!

and... um... shero inherited what? crosby... and? ryan malone? a rookie MAF? ziggy palfy? bowman inherited good luck and did well with it. shero inherited bad luck and did pretty damn good.
- ChrisMS

He had orpik and malkin too. Both huge assets during his era

You can argue both Bowman and Shero inherited stacked teams, but Bowman showed an ability to reload the roster and Shero showed zero aptitude for roster construction that wasn't handed to him by his predecessor. I hope he runs NJD into the ground too.
- jfkst1

Zero aptitude? You mean like constructing a team that achieved the most points during that timeframe while dealing with the most injuries? It's a lot easier to construct a team when you aren't constantly filling holes with zero cap space. And no, there weren't a lot of bad contracts - every Stanley Cup caliber team is up against the cap or close to it.

Crosby and Malkin also have more career fights than those two. Just saying I mean it is hockey.

Shero blew chunks when it came to constructing a team.
- powerhouse

HEY! I missed you... boobalah

I wish we had more chunk blowing cup winner gm's in the pens history!

I hope he has a few players notmade out of glass and paper on the devils... actually I dont. Pens should be quite unhappy he signed with them. could be trouble

He had orpik and malkin too. Both huge assets during his era
- jchst22

well he did help malkin defect... coolness... love orpik... but you still aint come close to the quite well reasoned argument of that other fellow... concerning inheritance. I'd argue that dont matter much.

Shero blew chunks when it came to constructing a team.
- powerhouse

The draft is where Shero fell on his face. Trading away high picks for lousy rentals too. The Pens are far from out of the woods at the prospect level.....it's going to take years.

Zero aptitude? You mean like constructing a team that achieved the most points during that timeframe while dealing with the most injuries? It's a lot easier to construct a team when you aren't constantly filling holes with zero cap space. And no, there weren't a lot of bad contracts - every Stanley Cup caliber team is up against the cap or close to it.
- thevelvetfog1

That might be impressive if he didn't have two generational players drafted for him. Along with Fleury and Letang. Only player he drafted outside the top 10 that have shown good NHL value is Maatta. Building a team through access to multiple top 10 picks isn't impressive. Almost anyone can do that. Part of the problem with injuries is fielding one of the the oldest teams in the league consistently. Overall Shero was very average and he was getting worse as he went.

I don't know... his injury came out... it was what, a 6-8 week or so injury? That put it ended right at or a bit after the deadline... Luck of the draw in a bad circumstance... you'd think we'd have had that for us a bunch of times in the last few seasons too >_<
- Guile

Zucker had almost the same injury. Similar surgery. Recovery projected at 12 weeks minimum. He came back in 10 weeks.

If Bowman convinced Kane to have his shoulder sliced open, a plate attached to his clavicle and then to come back in 8 weeks he deserves GM of the decade. For an injury it was great timing and also indisputable as an injury (surgery?).

Stan went out and grabbed Vermette for a 1st and Klas Dalbeck, Timmonen for 2 2nds, and Desjardins and cap space for Ben Smith. He saw the opportunity and grabbed it. Many of his trades are head scratchers - Timmo and Rundblad - but others like obtaining Oduya and Leddy were serious wins. Also, many of his trades have been at a disadvantage due to cap pressure so he needs to be graded on a curve.

Regardless, the results are there.... and not only because of the core but because of the pieces he added to and around it. Even the Saad trade could be a serious win down the road. ROI on Saad at $6m per year vs Dano at $975k?

I don't see much worship of Bowman. Actually a lot of disrespect. Probably somewhere in between but still underrated.

You can argue both Bowman and Shero inherited stacked teams, but Bowman showed an ability to reload the roster and Shero showed zero aptitude for roster construction that wasn't handed to him by his predecessor. I hope he runs NJD into the ground too.
- jfkst1

Bowman showed an ability to reload the roster ? You mean trading Buffuglien, Ladd, Bolland, Brouwer and Frolik and have basically nothing to show for it ? One thing Bowman did do well was to lock up the core that he inherited.

Comparing PPG only between the two duos isn't very useful. The argument isn't PPG in a vacuum, it's performance compared to regular season performance.

Crosby's regular seasson PPG is 1.36. His playoff PPG is 1.18.

Malkin's regular seasson PPG is 1.2. His playoff PPG is 1.10.

Toew's regular seasson PPG is 0.89. His playoff PPG is 0.87.

Kane's regular seasson PPG is 0.97. His playoff PPG is 0.98.

Malkin and Crosby drop off in the playoffs, Toews and Kane maintain or improve upon their regular season output.

And beyond "objective" data, and Penguin fan watching the games knows that Crosby and Malkin have not been anywhere near dominant in the playoffs lately, especially in the series they've lost. Against the Bruins both players did nothing. Against Columbus Crosby famously struggled. Against the Rangers the last two exits the big two were unable to force their will on their opponents.

And that's what great players have to do. Like Crosby against the Capitals during the Cup run, or Malkin in the next two series against the Hurricanes and Red Wings.

The Blackhawks have had better depth, sure. They have better depth than the Penguins' Cup teams. Difference is, when the playoffs were rocking deep playoff runs, Crosby and/or Malkin displayed dominance, and they simply haven't done that in the playoffs lately.

Comparing PPG only between the two duos isn't very useful. The argument isn't PPG in a vacuum, it's performance compared to regular season performance.

Crosby's regular seasson PPG is 1.36. His playoff PPG is 1.18.

Malkin's regular seasson PPG is 1.2. His playoff PPG is 1.10.

Toew's regular seasson PPG is 0.89. His playoff PPG is 0.87.

Kane's regular seasson PPG is 0.97. His playoff PPG is 0.98.

Malkin and Crosby drop off in the playoffs, Toews and Kane maintain or improve upon their regular season output.

And beyond "objective" data, and Penguin fan watching the games knows that Crosby and Malkin have not been anywhere near dominant in the playoffs lately, especially in the series they've lost. Against the Bruins both players did nothing. Against Columbus Crosby famously struggled. Against the Rangers the last two exits the big two were unable to force their will on their opponents.

And that's what great players have to do. Like Crosby against the Capitals during the Cup run, or Malkin in the next two series against the Hurricanes and Red Wings.

The Blackhawks have had better depth, sure. They have better depth than the Penguins' Cup teams. Difference is, when the playoffs were rocking deep playoff runs, Crosby and/or Malkin displayed dominance, and they simply haven't done that in the playoffs lately.
- hardnosed

But Crosby and Malkin's "dropoffs" are still higher than Toews and Kane's average. You say sure the Blackhawks had better depth. It's wasn't just a little better, it was a lot better. In 18 SCF games Toews has scored a total of 3 goals. Just in this past finals Toews and Kane combined had a total of two goals. Yet Chicago still won because they had many other guys pick up the slack.

Do you think the Penguins could win a 6 game series with Crosby/Malkin have two goals total between them?

Interesting interview on TSN with Franson. He was more candid than a lot of players are when doing interviews. He gives a good perspective on how slow this UFA has been compared to others.
http://www.tsn.ca/franson...ely-destinations-1.334032
- jfkst1

Yep, I'm surprised he mentioned the $5M mark when he started talking about the number of contracts and how quickly previous years the higher priced contrats were signed. He should know there would have been a lot less of those contracts this year with how bad the UFA market was. Then he basically said he was open to any deal (even a 1 year with the right team) and not necessarily that $5M amount. He said 5-6 teams were in contact with his agent. He said many of the teams had cap issues so that was hampering the negotiations. He did mention Boston when asked about Lucic (he played a few years with Lucic), but said no real talks with TOR and no talks with VAN.

A rumor website had percentages at:
Bos 45% Tor 30% Cbj 10% Pit 10% and 2 other teams 5%. I've seen BUF and Calgary also mentioned. I'm now thinking it might be a few weeks before anything happens with him and many of the remaining UFA's.

Bowman showed an ability to reload the roster ? You mean trading Buffuglien, Ladd, Bolland, Brouwer and Frolik and have basically nothing to show for it ? One thing Bowman did do well was to lock up the core that he inherited.
- willi

Considering they won two cups AFTER that, I'm pretty sure results speak for themselves.

Yep, I'm surprised he mentioned the $5M mark when he started talking about the number of contracts and how quickly previous years the higher priced contrats were signed. He should know there would have been a lot less of those contracts this year with how bad the UFA market was. Then he basically said he was open to any deal (even a 1 year with the right team) and not necessarily that $5M amount. He said 5-6 teams were in contact with his agent. He said many of the teams had cap issues so that was hampering the negotiations. He did mention Boston when asked about Lucic (he played a few years with Lucic), but said no real talks with TOR and no talks with VAN.

A rumor website had percentages at:
Bos 45% Tor 30% Cbj 10% Pit 10% and 2 other teams 5%. I've seen BUF and Calgary also mentioned. I'm now thinking it might be a few weeks before anything happens with him and many of the remaining UFA's.
- so_buzz11

Sign Eric Fehr, trade Sutter!

Unless Fehr doesn't want to sign with Pitt, this seems like a no brainer to me.

Yep, I'm surprised he mentioned the $5M mark when he started talking about the number of contracts and how quickly previous years the higher priced contrats were signed. He should know there would have been a lot less of those contracts this year with how bad the UFA market was. Then he basically said he was open to any deal (even a 1 year with the right team) and not necessarily that $5M amount. He said 5-6 teams were in contact with his agent. He said many of the teams had cap issues so that was hampering the negotiations. He did mention Boston when asked about Lucic (he played a few years with Lucic), but said no real talks with TOR and no talks with VAN.

A rumor website had percentages at:
Bos 45% Tor 30% Cbj 10% Pit 10% and 2 other teams 5%. I've seen BUF and Calgary also mentioned. I'm now thinking it might be a few weeks before anything happens with him and many of the remaining UFA's.
- so_buzz11

Considering the slow UFA market, you have to wonder if Ruth is kicking himself for not buying out Scuds. Could have saved approximately 2mil and given it to a D that can actually play. Shame.

I just don't think our D is Cup caliber at this point. I'm even thinking of getting 'Hoff back on the cheap. Letting the kids play sounds good until they get exposed....which I think is a real possibility.

Comparing PPG only between the two duos isn't very useful. The argument isn't PPG in a vacuum, it's performance compared to regular season performance.

Crosby's regular seasson PPG is 1.36. His playoff PPG is 1.18.

Malkin's regular seasson PPG is 1.2. His playoff PPG is 1.10.

Toew's regular seasson PPG is 0.89. His playoff PPG is 0.87.

Kane's regular seasson PPG is 0.97. His playoff PPG is 0.98.

Malkin and Crosby drop off in the playoffs, Toews and Kane maintain or improve upon their regular season output.

And beyond "objective" data, and Penguin fan watching the games knows that Crosby and Malkin have not been anywhere near dominant in the playoffs lately, especially in the series they've lost. Against the Bruins both players did nothing. Against Columbus Crosby famously struggled. Against the Rangers the last two exits the big two were unable to force their will on their opponents.

And that's what great players have to do. Like Crosby against the Capitals during the Cup run, or Malkin in the next two series against the Hurricanes and Red Wings.

The Blackhawks have had better depth, sure. They have better depth than the Penguins' Cup teams. Difference is, when the playoffs were rocking deep playoff runs, Crosby and/or Malkin displayed dominance, and they simply haven't done that in the playoffs lately.
- hardnosed

I cant figure you out man. You're showing data that Crosby and Malkin are STILL better than Toews and Kane in the playoffs even though they aren't "producing more in the playoffs than regular season".....and you say it like its a bad thing. They STILL produce more...and with a lesser supporting cast....are you kidding me with this argument?

This is like saying Max Lapierre is better than Crosby because Lapierre ups his game in the playoffs.

Maybe the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen you say.

Considering the slow UFA market, you have to wonder if Ruth is kicking himself for not buying out Scuds. Could have saved approximately 2mil and given it to a D that can actually play. Shame.

I just don't think our D is Cup caliber at this point. I'm even thinking of getting 'Hoff back on the cheap. Letting the kids play sounds good until they get exposed....which I think is a real possibility.
- madmike71

Unless Scuderi gets traded, I think it will be a mistake to not buy him out. He's completely unsuitable for Johnston's system.

Considering they won two cups AFTER that, I'm pretty sure results speak for themselves.
- jfkst1

Considering they won two Cups BEFORE Toews, Kane, et al. got their big paydays and the entire team has been relatively healthy during that time, it stands to reason.

Considering they won two Cups BEFORE Toews, Kane, et al. got their big paydays and the entire team has been relatively healthy during that time, it stands to reason.
- thevelvetfog1

And Bowman gave them those contracts. Along with Keith and Hossa's cap circumventing contracts. He also keeps a healthy supply of prospects to replenish the team so they aren't relying on injury prone geezers. So again, Bowman deserves credit for those things as they've yielded very positive results.

Considering they won two Cups BEFORE Toews, Kane, et al. got their big paydays and the entire team has been relatively healthy during that time, it stands to reason.
- thevelvetfog1

And... we won one and lost one before Crosby and Malkin were both on their big deals.

Considering they won two Cups BEFORE Toews, Kane, et al. got their big paydays and the entire team has been relatively healthy during that time, it stands to reason.
- thevelvetfog1

They have also had that advantage of playing the same or close to the same team for great periods of time - is cohesion considered an intangible? If the left doesn't know how or what the right is doing good chance they both get beat.

The Hawks have been healthy & relatively stable in personnel - a champion team will always beat a team of champions (helps when there are a lot of solid players on that champion team )!

Crosby and Malkin also have more career fights than those two. Just saying I mean it is hockey.
- Grinder47

What a couple of goons!

Stimulating