Glendale's situation is totally different. It was farmland and not bringing in any sort of tax income/creating jobs. They built Westgate and its restaurants, movie theater, arena, leveraged it to land the football stadium, hotels, Cabellas. There is no way you can compare that to some crop harvests and min wage farmhand jobs vs. what they have now.

Don't blame the team owners for this, it was Glendale trying to compete with the East valley. Glendale opened the spigot, not Moyes the prev owner. Some groups win, others lose. Same with any human endeavor (look at Greece as the opposite side of this coin). One side is not better than the other.
- itsborken

In the words of Fonzie, correctamundo.

It's actually what makes Glendale such a fascinating case study. You normally have teams threatening to leave, so in effect they "blackmail" politicians into making bad fiscal decisions.

Glendale did it all on their own. Using the "if you build it, they will come" economic development plan, they build a giant arena and hoped to be able to give it away for free (turns out the deal they signed was worse than giving it away for free).

But while it is true that the development has created tax revenues and jobs, that does not necessarily justify putting out such huge sums of money. You need to compare that to what kind of development/job creation they could have done by using the same amount of money, used to build something other than a giant white elephant of an arena.

The left gives welfare to people, the right gives welfare to corporations. Who would you rather have wasting the money you paid into general revenue, the person who will give it all away to rich people based on future promises or the person who gives it away so people can eat and pay rent, the basics of life that everyone needs to get their foot off the ground and become successful in future?
- ahjnkn

Yes, let's be Greece, or the rest of the PIGS. It has worked out so well for them. The key is using a bit of moderation and common sense which neither side has.

In the words of Fonzie, correctamundo.

It's actually what makes Glendale such a fascinating case study. You normally have teams threatening to leave, so in effect they "blackmail" politicians into making bad fiscal decisions.

Glendale did it all on their own. Using the "if you build it, they will come" economic development plan, they build a giant arena and hoped to be able to give it away for free (turns out the deal they signed was worse than giving it away for free).

But while it is true that the development has created tax revenues and jobs, that does not necessarily justify putting out such huge sums of money. You need to compare that to what kind of development/job creation they could have done by using the same amount of money, used to build something other than a giant white elephant of an arena.
- Atomic Wedgie

Yes but it's a little more complicated than you make it out, Atomic Wedgie.

Drop in the bucket. That's hilarious. It's been trillions of dollars the last few decades and the problems have done nothing but get worse.

You're actually right about corporate welfare. What you apparently lack is the understanding that corporations absolutely flood Democratic campaigns with cash. Why do you think Obama far exceeded the Repubs in Wall Street cash?

People like you probably think the majority of "the ultra rich" are Republicans. Couldn't be further from the truth.

Repubs and Dems don't want outsiders in the debates because they don't want someone telling the truth......and the truth is they both are exceedingly corrupt.

By the way... You do have a dog in the fight if you're an American.
- madmike71

While you're no doubt at least somewhat right, at least the democratic billionaires aren't monsters.

Trump, Sheldon Adelson and the Koch brothers are using their money to corrupt democracy in ways that were never even dreamed of. Those are some seriously bad guys. And I've often wondered what some of the poorest people in the US are doing thinking their interests align with these billionaires.
- James_Tanner

And Soros is a good guy?
Only in the perverted minds of liberals can this ever be true.

But while it is true that the development has created tax revenues and jobs, that does not necessarily justify putting out such huge sums of money. You need to compare that to what kind of development/job creation they could have done by using the same amount of money, used to build something other than a giant white elephant of an arena.
- Atomic Wedgie

Light industrial doesn't get you there and the Intels are going to go to the East valley with it better educated citizens (ASU and research parks). Glendale was already lapped in this race so they gambled on fresh thinking.

The hope was/is to turn the surrounding farmland into residential neighborhoods/businesses and continue growing the tax base -> more police/fire/public servants -> Glendale becomes a major player like Tempe/Mesa. Scottsdale is a pipe dream but it probably was part of the calculus.

Where do these facts come from??????

This is about as true as saying John Scott is a great hockey player.

Oliver is an always has been to the left of center. Like most of your commentary, I wonder if you are saying crap just for a response, knowing it is wacked way off base.
- jackzack87

Yes. Can't he a rational human being without leaning there.

Anyone who would vote for spending tax dollars on a sports arena for private teams really needs his/her head examined. A yes vote means you simply believed the lies and did no thinking or research on the topic.
- Scoob

Plenty of regions have voted yes and the stadium is used for non pro sports related things concerts, local sports, US national soccer etc.. with zero regrets. You think Indianapolis regrets having a Superbowl and tons of conventions in their city.

You obviously are not for spending tax dollars which is fine and respectable. But if people decide they want their money to go there and have a sports franchise that is there choice. Like I said everyone can take a hardline stance for tax dollars, but when they move that comes with their decision. Now if people were in favor of provisions by the US Gov nationally that limited the amount of $ or any tax dollar spent meant a certain portion paid back etc.. I don't think a single individual would be against that.

The funny thing about that was that the proposed tax increase, if the county funded the scaled-down version of the Lighthouse Project, would have been approximately $14/yr for Nassau County residents.
- eichiefs9

Yea I remember reading that. They picked the hockey stadium for $14 a person as the sword to fall on in the highest taxed county in America, it was semi comical. The original lighthouse plans were incredibly with the towers and pond.

Well yeah. Lots better. They aren't evil and there is a difference. Again, I don't care left vs right - I'm an idea man. But evil is evil. I am sure those guys aren't great or anything, but lets be realistic - Sheldon Adelson and the Koch brothers are the worst people in the world.
- James_Tanner

Ever heard of Michael R. Taylor?

And Soros is a good guy?
Only in the perverted minds of liberals can this ever be true.
- StargateSG1

Just goes to show you... People only know what they WANT to know. Soros is excrement.

Yea I remember reading that. They picked the hockey stadium for $14 a person as the sword to fall on in the highest taxed county in America, it was semi comical. The original lighthouse plans were incredibly with the towers and pond.
- cmsabres48

For the record, I wasn't faulting those people for voting the referendum down. It's their money and if they don't want to spend $14 more per year than that's their right.

It's just kind of funny that it was such a nominal amount, especially considering the absurd amount of taxes that they're already paying.

The original plans were nice and all, but it seemed grossly overblown. I'm not sure either of the proposals would have fixed the surrounding area, regardless of how many jobs were created.

For the record, I wasn't faulting those people for voting the referendum down. It's their money and if they don't want to spend $14 more per year than that's their right.

It's just kind of funny that it was such a nominal amount, especially considering the absurd amount of taxes that they're already paying.

The original plans were nice and all, but it seemed grossly overblown. I'm not sure either of the proposals would have fixed the surrounding area, regardless of how many jobs were created.
- eichiefs9

Yea I felt the same that do what you want with your money but $14 compared to everything you overspend on seemed like an odd topic to pick.

Yea I felt the same that do what you want with your money but $14 compared to everything you overspend on seemed like an odd topic to pick.
- cmsabres48

It would seem they have had enough tax increases.

Just goes to show you... People only know what they WANT to know. Soros is excrement.
- madmike71

It would seem they have had enough tax increases.
- Fenrir

When you're paying $12K/yr to have a 2BR house and next-to-zero property, I find it difficult to believe $14/yr is going to make-or-break your family finances. It's the equivalent of erasing one trip to Starbucks. Annually.

That said, hockey-fandom is in the minority on LI and the Islanders are the minority of that minority, in terms of number of fans. I'd venture to guess that the overwhelming majority of Nassau resident Ranger fans voted no. As well as non-hockey fans who didn't want to see their taxes go up at all, simply on principle.

When you're paying $12K/yr to have a 2BR house and next-to-zero property, I find it difficult to believe $14/yr is going to make-or-break your family finances. It's the equivalent of erasing one trip to Starbucks. Annually.

That said, hockey-fandom is in the minority on LI and the Islanders are the minority of that minority, in terms of number of fans. I'd venture to guess that the overwhelming majority of Nassau resident Ranger fans voted no. As well as non-hockey fans who didn't want to see their taxes go up at all, simply on principle.
- eichiefs9

It really sucks that you guys have lost your team. Like you said, the majority of homeowners/rental owners have no interest in hockey. I haven't driven on LI so don't know how bad traffic really is. Do you think the Lighthouse Project would have made things much worse, prompting the locals to squash it?

When you're paying $12K/yr to have a 2BR house and next-to-zero property, I find it difficult to believe $14/yr is going to make-or-break your family finances. It's the equivalent of erasing one trip to Starbucks. Annually.

That said, hockey-fandom is in the minority on LI and the Islanders are the minority of that minority, in terms of number of fans. I'd venture to guess that the overwhelming majority of Nassau resident Ranger fans voted no. As well as non-hockey fans who didn't want to see their taxes go up at all, simply on principle.
- eichiefs9

Luckily, I don't think it is over.

I'm sure the plan will be revisited 4 or 5 more times in the next 20 years.

Fans will complain about the crappy sight lines at the Barclays Center, and then start reminiscing about the great times at the old arena. There will be a movement created to move back to Nassau.

Yes, I know it's crazy. But I guarantee it's going to happen.

Please note: I'm not saying moving back to Nassau will ever happen - I'm just predicting the debate on public $ to support a new arena in Nassau (or a major refurbishment of the old barn - yes I'm aware they are already doing it, but what the hell, why not do it again!?!?) will happen.

It really sucks that you guys have lost your team. Like you said, the majority of homeowners/rental owners have no interest in hockey. I haven't driven on LI so don't know how bad traffic really is. Do you think the Lighthouse Project would have made things much worse, prompting the locals to squash it?
- Fenrir

I don't know if it would have necessarily made traffic worse, but I definitely know it wouldn't have made anything better. And, in the eyes of non-interested voters anyway, more money for the same thing is something that will never fly.

Traffic, generally speaking, tends to suck more the further west on LI you go but it's not particularly great anywhere. In Nassau it's pretty bad everywhere during prime rush-hour times.

I don't really view it as having "lost" the team. If they moved to Seattle, Quebec, or elsewhere that would be losing them to me. I grew up in Suffolk but currently live in Queens, so it's actually easier for me to get to games now by just hopping on the subway and/or LIRR. Brooklyn is an inconvenience for many, however. Ticket prices will go up. But it was the best realistic option. I'll go to less games because ticket prices are probably going to substantially increase but if that means the Islanders future is secure for the foreseeable future then that is a sacrifice I'm willing to make. They're in a brand-new arena, yes there are some oddities, but it's a state-of-the-art venue regardless. They have new (added) ownership taking the helm after this season that will allow them to spend the money necessary to ice a truly competitive team. Things are finally looking up on almost all fronts.

Luckily, I don't think it is over.

I'm sure the plan will be revisited 4 or 5 more times in the next 20 years.

Fans will complain about the crappy sight lines at the Barclays Center, and then start reminiscing about the great times at the old arena. There will be a movement created to move back to Nassau.

Yes, I know it's crazy. But I guarantee it's going to happen.

Please note: I'm not saying moving back to Nassau will ever happen - I'm just predicting the debate on public $ to support a new arena in Nassau (or a major refurbishment of the old barn - yes I'm aware they are already doing it, but what the hell, why not do it again!?!?) will happen.
- Atomic Wedgie

The funny thing is that the Islanders just agreed with Nassau to put $5.1M into an existing Nassau county rink to add offices and make it their practice facility.

There will always be talk/speculation/debate of them returning. I won't totally rule it out either, regardless of the term of the lease at the Barclays Center.

Sorry to link an article that you can't read in its entirety (because Newsday is a garbage newspaper) but this was just from today http://www.newsday.com/lo...with-islanders-1.10638975

Yes, let's be Greece, or the rest of the PIGS. It has worked out so well for them. The key is using a bit of moderation and common sense which neither side has.
- itsborken

Well, the US has a debt to GDP ratio over 100% as well, just more layers of government to spread the debt burden around. My point was that your place on the political spectrum is irrelevant, everyone wastes money just on different things. Elections just rebalance the spending priorities every couple of years. Whether you accumulate debt through social security increases and public health care, or through egregious military expenditures and tax loopholes and pandering to wealthy donors, the result is the same.

In any case, maybe we should also think about how, for hockey, both our taxes and our ticket costs contribute to making the absolutely wealthy incredibly wealthier at our expense, with little gratitude, results or accountability in return...

The funny thing is that the Islanders just agreed with Nassau to put $5.1M into an existing Nassau county rink to add offices and make it their practice facility.

There will always be talk/speculation/debate of them returning. I won't totally rule it out either, regardless of the term of the lease at the Barclays Center.

Sorry to link an article that you can't read in its entirety (because Newsday is a garbage newspaper) but this was just from today http://www.newsday.com/lo...with-islanders-1.10638975
- eichiefs9

Good Lord, looks like we are right:

http://newyork.cbslocal.c...for-nassau-coliseum-site/

Funny thing is, everyone assumes that the Islanders will be more financially viable in Brooklyn, but that's not necessarily true. Without seeing the lease agreement, we really have no way of knowing.

Good Lord, looks like we are right:

http://newyork.cbslocal.c...for-nassau-coliseum-site/

Funny thing is, everyone assumes that the Islanders will be more financially viable in Brooklyn, but that's not necessarily true. Without seeing the lease agreement, we really have no way of knowing.
- Atomic Wedgie

I think the reasoning behind the "more financially viable in BK" argument is that the population of Brooklyn is astronomical and only growing.

As far as the redevelopment, that is kind of old news. They're already lagging, in terms of actually breaking ground and starting it. Nassau can't get anything right.

But still, the Ratner connection is something that will always keep me holding on to a tiny sliver of hope that maybe one day the Isles will return. I'm not holding my breath, however.

I don't know if it would have necessarily made traffic worse, but I definitely know it wouldn't have made anything better. And, in the eyes of non-interested voters anyway, more money for the same thing is something that will never fly.

Traffic, generally speaking, tends to suck more the further west on LI you go but it's not particularly great anywhere. In Nassau it's pretty bad everywhere during prime rush-hour times.

I don't really view it as having "lost" the team. If they moved to Seattle, Quebec, or elsewhere that would be losing them to me. I grew up in Suffolk but currently live in Queens, so it's actually easier for me to get to games now by just hopping on the subway and/or LIRR. Brooklyn is an inconvenience for many, however. Ticket prices will go up. But it was the best realistic option. I'll go to less games because ticket prices are probably going to substantially increase but if that means the Islanders future is secure for the foreseeable future then that is a sacrifice I'm willing to make. They're in a brand-new arena, yes there are some oddities, but it's a state-of-the-art venue regardless. They have new (added) ownership taking the helm after this season that will allow them to spend the money necessary to ice a truly competitive team. Things are finally looking up on almost all fronts.
- eichiefs9

Used to have Rangers tickets '00-'03, but my salary didn't keep up with the yearly increase. Now? forget about it. Obscene.

Exciting time to be an Isles fan fer sher.
Now...about that coach.