The Red Wing references were much more powerful. Billionaire owner, successful team and bankrupt city.
- Canada Cup

I totally agree..
He slated the Wings more than the Yotes, and that is likely reasonable considering the ownership group compared to Mr. Little Ceasars. I think both deals are horrendous for two of the hardest hit regions in the US for the economic crash in 2007.

I don't agree with Oliver that sports arena's don't increase the economics of a city. I am a friend of a friend of an owner of a popular restaurant across the street from Honda Center. They make a killing during hockey season and have to hire extra staff to meet the demand. During the off season those employees aren't needed and his restaurant barely breaks even. Those extra employees pay taxes and spend their money in the surrounding area. All because of the Honda Center.
The problem with the Glendale arena isn't location as some have suggested. Hell, it's 15 minutes or so from Phoenix, where everyone says their problems will be solved. The real problem with Glendale is they agreed to an idiotic deal with the Yotes and now they are trying to weasel out of it, pretty much rightfully so.
- duxcup07

The problem here is you don't agree with an objective study and then site anecdotal evidence. It's possible your friend is one of the few that is helped, but it doesn't mean it's worth a couple billion in tax payer money to help a few restaurants.

James Tanner: John Oliver Takes On the Coyotes
HBO Meets the NHL
- James_Tanner

Welcome aboard the common sense train. Public money to support private sports ventures is always a bad idea.

Too many right wing extremists skate around the fact that most corporations are the biggest welfare queens in the country, but they need someone to hate. The poor are an easy target and while a problem it's but a drop in the bucket.

Nice work Tanner. Call it like it is.... Even if the O'Reilly Fruitcakes come for your head.

I don't drink either flavor of koolaid, so I don't have a dog in this fight.

Too many people fighting over Coke vs Pepsi.

Every wonder why the Repubs and Dems don't let outsiders into the debates???

THINK about it.
- rugdnit

Drop in the bucket. That's hilarious. It's been trillions of dollars the last few decades and the problems have done nothing but get worse.

You're actually right about corporate welfare. What you apparently lack is the understanding that corporations absolutely flood Democratic campaigns with cash. Why do you think Obama far exceeded the Repubs in Wall Street cash?

People like you probably think the majority of "the ultra rich" are Republicans. Couldn't be further from the truth.

Repubs and Dems don't want outsiders in the debates because they don't want someone telling the truth......and the truth is they both are exceedingly corrupt.

By the way... You do have a dog in the fight if you're an American.

Good morning, James.

Remember your June 10th blog when a few of us tried to calmly explain this to you, and you got all huffy and indignant?

Good times.

But I'm not here just to rip you a new one (although I've already accomplished that).

For those of you interested in the subject of owners screwing taxpayers, there is no better website than www.fieldofschemes.com

And I highly recommend the book, although it is a bit dated now. Still a fantastic read.
- Atomic Wedgie

You have to understand that the Glendale City Council - by all accounts - is fighting a losing battle (barring the unexpected revelation or two) and by doing so, sabotaging the value and viability of a team they are likely stuck with.

To me, they're still ridiculous, grandstanding idiots. The agreement should never have happened, and having a team in Glendale in the first place is preposterous.

But there is the whole issue of a) being sick of the off-ice BS and b) not wanting the team to move.

So it's a little more complicated than you make it out. But yeah, corporations screwing regular people out of their tax money is terrible.

The Red Wing references were much more powerful. Billionaire owner, successful team and bankrupt city.
- Canada Cup

Yeah that was horrible.

I don't agree with Oliver that sports arena's don't increase the economics of a city. I am a friend of a friend of an owner of a popular restaurant across the street from Honda Center. They make a killing during hockey season and have to hire extra staff to meet the demand. During the off season those employees aren't needed and his restaurant barely breaks even. Those extra employees pay taxes and spend their money in the surrounding area. All because of the Honda Center.
- duxcup07

That's one anecdote, and it actually lends support to the fact that sports arenas don't increase the economics of a city. Were that the case the restaurants in the area wouldn't "barely be breaking even" on non game-days.

Drop in the bucket. That's hilarious. It's been trillions of dollars the last few decades and the problems have done nothing but get worse.

You're actually right about corporate welfare. What you apparently lack is the understanding that corporations absolutely flood Democratic campaigns with cash. Why do you think Obama far exceeded the Repubs in Wall Street cash?

People like you probably think the majority of "the ultra rich" are Republicans. Couldn't be further from the truth.

Repubs and Dems don't want outsiders in the debates because they don't want someone telling the truth......and the truth is they both are exceedingly corrupt.

By the way... You do have a dog in the fight if you're an American.
- madmike71

While you're no doubt at least somewhat right, at least the democratic billionaires aren't monsters.

Trump, Sheldon Adelson and the Koch brothers are using their money to corrupt democracy in ways that were never even dreamed of. Those are some seriously bad guys. And I've often wondered what some of the poorest people in the US are doing thinking their interests align with these billionaires.

Welcome aboard the common sense train. Public money to support private sports ventures is always a bad idea.
- Scoob

It's a bad idea IF the taxpayers basically do not get a say to vote on whether they want a new arena or not. In those circumstances people get hooked on for something that they never had a voice for.

One of the interesting things to me with the Isles situation was the fact Nassau said no. I liked that the citzens got their voice and while it wasn't good for the Isles at least the people had their say. That said if you do choose to vote no for a new stadium and your team does end up moving I don't want to hear about how sad and unfair it is when they move. In the end its a business whether we like it or not.

By the way... The people arguing against the "sweetheart" deals for the Pittsburgh stadiums were all republicans. Unfortunately, Pittsburgh is ruled by democrats, so we got 3 new stadiums.

The Rooney's - Steelers - Big democratic doner. Heinz field

Ron Burkle - Penguins - Big democratic doner. Consol

Kevin McClatchy - Pirates - Big democratic doner. - PNC Park.

I will say however... The development around these stadiums has exploded.

It's a bad idea IF the taxpayers basically do not get a say to vote on whether they want a new arena or not. In those circumstances people get hooked on for something that they never had a voice for.

One of the interesting things to me with the Isles situation was the fact Nassau said no. I liked that the citzens got their voice and while it wasn't good for the Isles at least the people had their say. That said if you do choose to vote no for a new stadium and your team does end up moving I don't want to hear about how sad and unfair it is when they move. In the end its a business whether we like it or not.
- cmsabres48

Anyone who would vote for spending tax dollars on a sports arena for private teams really needs his/her head examined. A yes vote means you simply believed the lies and did no thinking or research on the topic.

probably one of the best summaries of this mess ive read. one thing to add...city is still stuck paying to run the arena AND they have to pay down the debt it cost to build it.
- whatthepuckaz

Thank you! I wonder at this point if it's just better for the city to flush away the 6 mil? They're still coming off better than continuing to pay the team. Either way we feel for you Yotes fans. Not knowing what's going to happen to your favorite team is pretty crummy!

Oh and Bloomberg, Soros, and enviro-hero Steyer are any better?
- Scoob

Well yeah. Lots better. They aren't evil and there is a difference. Again, I don't care left vs right - I'm an idea man. But evil is evil. I am sure those guys aren't great or anything, but lets be realistic - Sheldon Adelson and the Koch brothers are the worst people in the world.

Sports owners are scum bags that don't care about the paying customers? I'm shocked.

Oh and Bloomberg, Soros, and enviro-hero Steyer are any better?
- Scoob

Exactly. Soros is quite possibly the most evil man alive and he's the lifeblood of the democratic party.

It's a bad idea IF the taxpayers basically do not get a say to vote on whether they want a new arena or not. In those circumstances people get hooked on for something that they never had a voice for.

One of the interesting things to me with the Isles situation was the fact Nassau said no. I liked that the citzens got their voice and while it wasn't good for the Isles at least the people had their say. That said if you do choose to vote no for a new stadium and your team does end up moving I don't want to hear about how sad and unfair it is when they move. In the end its a business whether we like it or not.
- cmsabres48

The funny thing about that was that the proposed tax increase, if the county funded the scaled-down version of the Lighthouse Project, would have been approximately $14/yr for Nassau County residents.

Well yeah. Lots better. They aren't evil and there is a difference. Again, I don't care left vs right - I'm an idea man. But evil is evil. I am sure those guys aren't great or anything, but lets be realistic - Sheldon Adelson and the Koch brothers are the worst people in the world.
- James_Tanner

I deleted my comment because I didn't want to go down the road of picking names. Let's just agree that both sides have not nice people.

That's one anecdote, and it actually lends support to the fact that sports arenas don't increase the economics of a city. Were that the case the restaurants in the area wouldn't "barely be breaking even" on non game-days.
- Scoob

Think of it this way (and this is backed by numerous economic studies):

Every year, people have X amount of money to spend on entertainment.

So right now, those people are spending it at restaurants around the Honda Center before games.

But if the Honda Center wasn't there, they would be spending it elsewhere - still on entertainment.

Yes, it gets a little more complicated when you factor in people coming from out of town to visit the Honda Center.

But when pro-stadium development economic studies use stupid figures like:

41 games X 18,000 fans per game X $141 dollars (average spent on food and drinks that night (I'm making that figure up)) = $104, 058,000 in new economic development for the city per year!!!!!!!!!

we all need to sit back, take a sip of coffee, and analyze the numbers rationally.

Because those numbers above are complete and utter BS.

I deleted my comment because I didn't want to go down the road of picking names. Let's just agree that both sides have not nice people.
- Scoob

When it comes to public dollars for private stadia and arenas, there are no good sizes. Democrats and Republicans have equal records - shamefully equal records.

You have to understand that the Glendale City Council - by all accounts - is fighting a losing battle (barring the unexpected revelation or two) and by doing so, sabotaging the value and viability of a team they are likely stuck with.

- James_Tanner

Why do I have to understand this, James? Do you have any insider information?

Glendale City Council is acting on advice given by their legal council.

It will play out in court. Neither you nor I know how this will turn out.

At the end of the day, the value of the team is not their concern, and the viability of the team has already been proven - it simply isn't viable in Glendale without a massive subsidy from taxpayers. Which city council opposes.

To me, they're still ridiculous, grandstanding idiots. The agreement should never have happened, and having a team in Glendale in the first place is preposterous.

But there is the whole issue of a) being sick of the off-ice BS and b) not wanting the team to move.

So it's a little more complicated than you make it out. But yeah, corporations screwing regular people out of their tax money is terrible.
- James_Tanner

How can you write a blog praising them for standing up to money-grubbing owners, and then call them ridiculous, grandstanding idiots?

Do you want to make up your mind and then get back to me?

I disagree with that statement. If you go back 15 years you'll pretty much see conservatives stating the same themes. Self control, law and order and personal responsibility.

I'd actually say the opposite. What used to be "left" 15 years ago, would now be considered center right....(hell maybe even far right) Just go back and look at the Clinton years. Welfare reform, "era of big government is over", defense of marriage act, NAFTA, GATT, tax cuts, etc. Face it, big hero's of the left like Clinton and JFK would never have a chance in the Demrat party of today.

Asking someone to buy stuff for another, is and has always been, a theme of the left.
- madmike71

Yeah, because all the right wing billionaire team owners asking for public handouts to fund infrastructure investments and tax breaks they could in most cases otherwise afford to handle on their own are all soooooooooooooooooooooo socialistic.

The left gives welfare to people, the right gives welfare to corporations. Who would you rather have wasting the money you paid into general revenue, the person who will give it all away to rich people based on future promises or the person who gives it away so people can eat and pay rent, the basics of life that everyone needs to get their foot off the ground and become successful in future?

Sports owners are scum bags that don't care about the paying customers? I'm shocked.
- houseofcards74

Perhaps you are forgetting that after the lockout that torched an entire NHL season, every team wrote "Thank you, fans" on the ice.

Jesus, what more do you want?

Why do I have to understand this, James? Do you have any insider information?

Glendale City Council is acting on advice given by their legal council.

It will play out in court. Neither you nor I know how this will turn out.

At the end of the day, the value of the team is not their concern, and the viability of the team has already been proven - it simply isn't viable in Glendale without a massive subsidy from taxpayers. Which city council opposes.


How can you write a blog praising them for standing up to money-grubbing owners, and then call them ridiculous, grandstanding idiots?

Do you want to make up your mind and then get back to me?
- Atomic Wedgie

From what I've seen, the City does have a case that the lawyer was actively involved in the negotiations and the vote by Council. I have no dea if they'll win or not but they have a viable argument.

Glendale's situation is totally different. It was farmland and not bringing in any sort of tax income/creating jobs. They built Westgate and its restaurants, movie theater, arena, leveraged it to land the football stadium, hotels, Cabellas, and recently an outlet mall. There is no way you can compare that to some crop harvests and min wage farmhand jobs vs. what they have now.

Don't blame the team owners for this, it was Glendale trying to compete with the East valley. Glendale opened the spigot, not Moyes the prev owner. Some groups win, others lose. Same with any human endeavor (look at Greece as the opposite side of this coin). I'm confident tha outlet mall was a giveaway too and will be vacant in 10 years like others in the area. It is all a big giveaway and one side is not better than the other.

Perhaps you are forgetting that after the lockout that torched an entire NHL season, every team wrote "Thank you, fans" on the ice.

Jesus, what more do you want?
- Atomic Wedgie

It's true, that's when I knew everything was going to be ok!