Yeah but he's an athlete and you're a forum nerd. I'm thinking muscle vs fat
- Victoro311

LOL

Actually I was an athlete myself. Played semi-pro soccer and might be exactly 5kg above my normal weight lol

All In all, Rust got my size When I'm In shape. I'll pay more attention to his game

To be fair players like Stamkos and Toews and Kane were shut down at times in the playoffs. Difference is those teams have much better supporting players, Pens do not. Just aren't a well constructed team.
- sammy87

I think this argument is somewhat valid...but does not explain the entire problem.

Malkin played in the worlds...so his injury could not have been that bad, could it?

The Penguins have been built around the idea that the stars they have are better than other teams stars. They haven't been.

MAF played well this year and last...but for 2-3 years before he crapped the bed bigtime.

Crosby has been producing at a significantly lower rate (points) in his last 4 playoff seasons than in his first 4 playoff seasons

1st 4
GP=62 G=30 A=52 Pts=82

last 4
GP=38 G=13 A=23 Pts=36

Malkin's stats show a similar type of drop.

Two guys...18.2M cap hit
- icedog97

Malkin was bad to start the WCs too. So I don't think he was healthy at all. Unless they are willing to waive their NMC, there isn't any possible way of upgrading the roster by dealing them. So what is the point of discussing something that has zero chance of happening? We just saw how Kessel, who doesn't even have a full NMC, could manipulate a well below market value return for his former team. You wanna try doing that with 87/71/58?

From pensburgh.com


One thing about Pitt fans is if someone with a little clout says a player isn't good some people follow like puppies.

Sutter without wingers put up 21, with wingers maybe he touches 27-30....which would be damn good for 3C.
- kgrpitt

Sutter scoring 21 was an exception, not the rule. He will never sniff 30 goals. I hope Im wrong, but history has proven otherwise.

To be fair players like Stamkos and Toews and Kane were shut down at times in the playoffs. Difference is those teams have much better supporting players, Pens do not. Just aren't a well constructed team.
- sammy87

True, but 3 goals for #87 in past 2 years playoffs (what like 19-20 games) is quite rough.

Ah yes very good argument. You have convinced me and now I agree with you...trade our depth center now JR so we all can continue to complain about lack of depth!
- kgrpitt

Sutter played 2C for Carolina for a year and wasn't especially effective at it. He played 2C minutes last year and wasn't effective at it. Including time with Malkin and Dupuis on his wing and the line was terrible. Maybe he can be dragged by good wingers into being an effective center, but if that is the case, why the hell should the Pens spend so much money on an overpaid passenger-type player? They can get that for cheaper.

ding ding ding. The big contract guys have been just as quiet if not more invisible in the playoffs as the guys who "make to much". If anything guys that make more should be the ones stepping up and dragging their team through a few post season games.
- kgrpitt

Our big contract guys (Malkin and Crosby) average over 1PPG in the playoffs. You know, when you guys seem to think they need to "step up". Just for context, this puts them in the top 15 of players EVER in the playoffs.

So yeah.

Malkin was bad to start the WCs too. So I don't think he was healthy at all. Unless they are willing to waive their NMC, there isn't any possible way of upgrading the roster by dealing them. So what is the point of discussing something that has zero chance of happening? We just saw how Kessel, who doesn't even have a full NMC, could manipulate a well below market value return for his former team. You wanna try doing that with 87/71/58?
- jfkst1

I never said to trade them.

I think the problem is something else still.

Sure...lack of depth is an issue. But shouldn't two of the best players in the world be able to 'will their team' to a game 6 or 7 versus the Rangers?

Maybe they didn't believe the team (as constructed) had a chance...and that was somewhat reflected in their play?

I just don't think we have seen the best that Crosby and Malkin can be...in the playoffs...for a while...and I don't think the 3rd and 4th lines are to blame for that.

To be fair players like Stamkos and Toews and Kane were shut down at times in the playoffs. Difference is those teams have much better supporting players, Pens do not. Just aren't a well constructed team.
- sammy87

Yeah the defense of the abysmal supporting cast by dragging he big contracts through the mud is something that I can't respect. First of all, compare the top 6s.

Kunitz-Crosby-Hornqvist
Perron-Malkin-Comeau

Vs

Saad-Toews-Hossa
Sharp-Richards-Kane

First of all, despite our top two stars being better than their top two stars, their top 6 is much much harder to shut down. For us all you have to focus on is taking Crosby and Malkin out of the game. For the Hawks you have to worry about whole lines. Then, in the event that the top 6 gets shut down, they've got Teravainan-Vermette-Shaw as support while we've got Spaling-Sutter-Bennett or whatever carousel we've got going on the flanks of Sutter. Their third line can bail the top six out of they get shut down which makes shutting down the top 6 that much harder cus you gotta worry about secondary scoring. Our third line can't do that.

True, but 3 goals for #87 in past 2 years playoffs (what like 19-20 games) is quite rough.
- kgrpitt

No its not good and you can't defend it. But the Pens are a 2 line team and its easy to shut down. I dont think much has changed adding Kessel.

To be fair players like Stamkos and Toews and Kane were shut down at times in the playoffs. Difference is those teams have much better supporting players, Pens do not. Just aren't a well constructed team.
- sammy87

Hey!! Sammy and I agree for once! Someone write down the date and time

Yeah the defense of the abysmal supporting cast by dragging he big contracts through the mud is something that I can't respect. First of all, compare the top 6s.

Kunitz-Crosby-Hornqvist
Perron-Malkin-Comeau

Vs

Saad-Toews-Hossa
Sharp-Richards-Kane

First of all, despite our top two stars being better than their top two stars, their top 6 is much much harder to shut down. For us all you have to focus on is taking Crosby and Malkin out of the game. For the Hawks you have to worry about whole lines. Then, in the event that the top 6 gets shut down, they've got Teravainan-Vermette-Shaw as support while we've got Spaling-Sutter-Bennett or whatever carousel we've got going on the flanks of Sutter. Their third line can bail the top six out of they get shut down which makes shutting down the top 6 that much harder cus you gotta worry about secondary scoring. Our third line can't do that.
- Victoro311

But then they have players like Versteeg, Teavu, Shaw.....

But then they have players like Versteeg, Teavu, Shaw.....
- sammy87

Literally what I said in my post. I'm agreeing with you.

LOL

Actually I was an athlete myself. Played semi-pro soccer and might be exactly 5kg above my normal weight lol

All In all, Rust got my size When I'm In shape. I'll pay more attention to his game
- Barnaby36

Hahaha sorry I couldn't help myself on that one

I never said to trade them.

I think the problem is something else still.

Sure...lack of depth is an issue. But shouldn't two of the best players in the world be able to 'will their team' to a game 6 or 7 versus the Rangers?

Maybe they didn't believe the team (as constructed) had a chance...and that was somewhat reflected in their play?

I just don't think we have seen the best that Crosby and Malkin can be...in the playoffs...for a while...and I don't think the 3rd and 4th lines are to blame for that.
- icedog97

In 2014 Malkin was good in the playoffs and Crosby was injured. This season Crosby was good in the playoffs and Malkin was injured. They deserve criticism for NEVER being able to stay healthy. But I'm not seeing any depth players consistently step up either. I agree with Sammy that the team is still very top heavy, and that will kill them come postseason time when penalties don't exist and top dmen play a lot more minutes. Those things heavily mitigate elite offensive players and provide greater opportunities for depth forwards to "step up." Which is something the Pens have tragically missed.

Our big contract guys (Malkin and Crosby) average over 1PPG in the playoffs. You know, when you guys seem to think they need to "step up". Just for context, this puts them in the top 15 of players EVER in the playoffs.

So yeah.
- thickman1178

First four years Crosby was brilliant with 1.32/game in playoffs. Since .95. Malkin career is .86

Again, not all the blame goes on the big guns but they shouldn't get a free ride when it comes to the short comings of the Pens in the postseason.

In 2014 Malkin was good in the playoffs and Crosby was injured. This season Crosby was good in the playoffs and Malkin was injured. They deserve criticism for NEVER being able to stay healthy. But I'm not seeing any depth players consistently step up either. I agree with Sammy that the team is still very top heavy, and that will kill them come postseason time when penalties don't exist and top dmen play a lot more minutes. Those things heavily mitigate elite offensive players and provide greater opportunities for depth forwards to "step up." Which is something the Pens have tragically missed.
- jfkst1

Something I touched on my previous post is that last year I'm not sure id even call them top heavy last year. We were a one line team even when Malkin was injured because we only really had one good winger to give to our super stars in Hornqvist and one ok one in Perron due to his inconsistency. Now that we have Kessel and a bunch of different top 9 options I think you can make the argument for top heavy, but I think I'm more cautiously optimistic than Sammy and think we have deceptive depth since we have so many top 9 forward options in Kunitz, Dupuis, Plotnikov, and Bennett. Lots of possible line conbos to be had.

First four years Crosby was brilliant with 1.32/game in playoffs. Since .95. Malkin career is .86

Again, not all the blame goes on the big guns but they shouldn't get a free ride when it comes to the short comings of the Pens in the postseason.
- kgrpitt

If a point per game average in the playoffs isnt good enough for you when it still more than most players ever in the history of the game, then I think its your expectations that need to be adjusted.

The fact is our depth has been what has killed us. And Fleurys horrible play up until recently.

And Malkin's is over 1, not .86.


http://www.quanthockey.co...nts-per-game-leaders.html

I think this argument is somewhat valid...but does not explain the entire problem.
- icedog97

No it doesn't. But when you dig into each year you start to understand Sid's issues. Returned from a career threatening concussion for one of those post seasons.

After the lockout, was damn near playing the best hockey of his career when Orpik breaks his face right before the stretch run. Has to drink his meals through a straw for 6 weeks before returning for the 2nd playoff game.

Then the Olympic year where he played the most minutes of any forward in the NHL. Followed by the most minutes of any forward in the Olympics. He looked flat out gassed in the playoffs. People were talking about his wrist but I thought he looked exhausted. And um, Brian Gibbons was his linemate too.

Last year he looked great, but only Hornqvist was any help. While the rest of team was injured or sucked.

That's the way I look at Sid's last 4 playoffs.

Something I touched on my previous post is that last year I'm not sure id even call them top heavy last year. We were a one line team even when Malkin was injured because we only really had one good winger to give to our super stars in Hornqvist and one ok one in Perron due to his inconsistency. Now that we have Kessel and a bunch of different top 9 options I think you can make the argument for top heavy, but I think I'm more cautiously optimistic than Sammy and think we have deceptive depth since we have so many top 9 forward options in Kunitz, Dupuis, Plotnikov, and Bennett. Lots of possible line conbos to be had.
- Victoro311

The 4th line has to be competent enough to play in every situation and not be a liability like it has been for the last two years. The 3rd line can't go long stretches of time without offensive production like it has for the last two years.

If a point per game average in the playoffs isnt good enough for you when it still more than most players ever in the history of the game, then I think its your expectations that need to be adjusted.

The fact is our depth has been what has killed us. And Fleurys horrible play up until recently.
- thickman1178

Ah okay, will do...

But, once again they are 2 of the upper echelon players in the history of the game there numbers should be that high. Just that their play doesn't seem to shine through when you need a clutch play or goal.

I will state once again that I don't think it is a single factor/player to blame for the short comings but it needs to be spread out over the lack of depth, big guns, coaching, fluery (before the past year or two), etc. Not just, oh they lost because of depth and call it a day.

My mistake, I used assist instead of pts for Malkin. But same as Crosby past 4 years is .91 not that it is bad but see comment above.

The 4th line has to be competent enough to play in every situation and not be a liability like it has been for the last two years. The 3rd line can't go long stretches of time without offensive production like it has for the last two years.
- jfkst1

Agreed. As far as the fourth line goes, it's gonna be made up of guys like Rust, Wilson, Sundqvist, Plotnikov, Bennett and anyone the JR may find the need to bring in (Santorelli). That sounds automatically better than Adams, Sill, Payrel, Lapierre, etcetera. As far as the third line it's going to be made up of guys like Kunitz, Dupuis, Perron, Plotnikov, and Bennett. If that line can't produce on a regular basis then the Sutter defenders have lost all credibility.

Agreed. As far as the fourth line goes, it's gonna be made up of guys like Rust, Wilson, Sundqvist, Plotnikov, Bennett and anyone the JR may find the need to bring in (Santorelli). That sounds automatically better than Adams, Sill, Payrel, Lapierre, etcetera. As far as the third line it's going to be made up of guys like Kunitz, Dupuis, Perron, Plotnikov, and Bennett. If that line can't produce on a regular basis then the Sutter defenders have lost all credibility.
- Victoro311

I'd much rather go with the young guys than the proven trash like Sill, Adams, or Lapierre. At least in the limited sample sizes, Wilson and Rust passed the eye/data tests whereas the aforementioned group fails miserably. I still think Sutter is going to be an anchor on any line due to his weak puck battling and playmaking. Hopefully you are right that if he isn't able to perform with the wingers the Pens have this year, it'll be indefensible to all including management. Though if that happens, it'll probably be too late to change course too.

Strength and conditioning coach Mike Kadar is leaving the Penguins to take the same post with the Detroit Red Wings.

Would you sign the formar teammates Glencross and Stempniak for $1.5M each?

I think they'd look good on our bottom lines. Good depth.