You've got to reverse the trade a bit to understand. The Penguins really wanted Lovejoy. Had wanted to trade for him for months, by GMJR's own admission.

Lovejoy was unavailable probably until the Ducks traded for Wisniewski.

When Lovejoy was indeed available, I'm sure the Ducks were intent on a prospect D like Harrington in return. Look at what a pile of questionable trash like Coburn got to play the same role. If all it took to get Lovejoy was Despres, that's a win for the Penguins.

Maybe Despres becomes a nice player, maybe he doesn't. Maybe the Penguins have three better prospects who would have pushed Despres out by the time he's a RFA.

In all events, Despres had been rumored to be available going back to last season. If a higher return was out there I think it would have been realized. There wasn't a scenario wherein Pittsburgh was trading a Despres package for Jordan Eberle or Valeri Nichushkin. Trading Despres to fix the Penguins' slotting issue was more than enough return.
- Johnny Wrath

Combine that with the fact the the Pens were shopping for a mid pairing defenseman, and had cap space issues.

How many teams have a top 4-5 defensemen making $1 mil, and how many of them are going to move them?

Rutherford had a specific targeted need, and not a lot of trade chips to work with. Anaheim had the leverage.

That had off ice issues.
- sammy87

Similar things were said about Neal having personality issues with teammates and I've yet to see that manifest itself in NSH. Hopefully Despres stagnates and he never becomes more than a #5 dman.

You've got to reverse the trade a bit to understand. The Penguins really wanted Lovejoy. Had wanted to trade for him for months, by GMJR's own admission.

Lovejoy was unavailable probably until the Ducks traded for Wisniewski.

When Lovejoy was indeed available, I'm sure the Ducks were intent on a prospect D like Harrington in return. Look at what a pile of questionable trash like Coburn got to play the same role. If all it took to get Lovejoy was Despres, that's a win for the Penguins.

Maybe Despres becomes a nice player, maybe he doesn't. Maybe the Penguins have three better prospects who would have pushed Despres out by the time he's a RFA.

In all events, Despres had been rumored to be available going back to last season. If a higher return was out there I think it would have been realized. There wasn't a scenario wherein Pittsburgh was trading a Despres package for Jordan Eberle or Valeri Nichushkin. Trading Despres to fix the Penguins' slotting issue was more than enough return.
- Johnny Wrath

I think we may just view the trade as fundamentally different in several ways.

First, I see the Penguins getting fixated on a individual player they wanted & overpaying. Lovejoy is solid, but I dont think anyone would describle him as a unique or exceptional player. No reason I can think of as to why it had to be Lovejoy.

Second, I see it as a clear loss for the Penguins in a few ways; (i) Lovejoy costs $200K more, (ii) Despres still has 2yrs of RFA remaining, and (iii) Despres has a higher ceiling. To me its, a short term lateral move where the Ducks have a potential significant edge in the long term.

Third, not saying that Eberle or Nischukin, but there are some teams pretty starved for young Dmen out there. If this deal had been Despres for Etem straight up or Lovejoy + 3rd, I'd have no qualms. What about Perron for Despres + 2nd? Would the Oilers have done that deal? I just think the potential of Despres should have generated either a mid-round pick or a F with similar potental in return.

I agree that he is still a good player. Although next year, with Maatta back he is not really needed.

58-3
51-12
6-26

Even if Hoff or Martin resign, he still is not needed. Dumoulin is NHL ready too.

Edit: I wouldn't mind Martin at 5.5 3 years or 2 years for 6. Harrington may also be ready next year, but who knows.
- znagle

its not about not being needed... its about a person(s) willing to flush millions down the terlit

Can we just have Lovejoy and Scuderi trade contracts? I'd be fine giving Lovejoy $3.3 mil for the next two years if we can make Scuderi take $1.1 for next season and be done.

No? Not allowed?
- rival22

agreed

That's completely unreasonable unless his play declines dramatically or he suffers injuries. He signed that contract before establishing himself in the NHL. Capable top 4 dmen (which he appears to be) in their early 30s with no injury concerns get $4m+ routinely in FA. Since he is on such a low paying contract, I'd also add that he will want term of 4+ years as well.
- jfkst1

I liked my blind reasoning >_>

I think we may just view the trade as fundamentally different in several ways.

First, I see the Penguins getting fixated on a individual player they wanted & overpaying. Lovejoy is solid, but I dont think anyone would describle him as a unique or exceptional player. No reason I can think of as to why it had to be Lovejoy.

Second, I see it as a clear loss for the Penguins in a few ways; (i) Lovejoy costs $200K more, (ii) Despres still has 2yrs of RFA remaining, and (iii) Despres has a higher ceiling. To me its, a short term lateral move where the Ducks have a potential significant edge in the long term.

Third, not saying that Eberle or Nischukin, but there are some teams pretty starved for young Dmen out there. If this deal had been Despres for Etem straight up or Lovejoy + 3rd, I'd have no qualms. What about Perron for Despres + 2nd? Would the Oilers have done that deal? I just think the potential of Despres should have generated either a mid-round pick or a F with similar potental in return.
- s0rcerer1984

I get all that. The Ducks had 100% of the leverage. I'm pleased that Pittsburgh got what they wanted in a player-for-player deal rather than a more expensive plan-B guy like Petry. I really don't care if an additional 3rd rounder wasn't offered.

There is no way Etem or Perron are moved for a trade centered around Despres.

Similar things were said about Neal having personality issues with teammates and I've yet to see that manifest itself in NSH. Hopefully Despres stagnates and he never becomes more than a #5 dman.
- jfkst1

I thought the Penguins got a great return for Neal.

I wasn't happy about it for the first hour or so, but then I read a bit about Hornquvist & changed my mind pretty quickly. It also helped that at first I thought Hornquvist was in his late 30's instead of being 27 at the time.

Even Spaling, one of the advancted stats whipping boys at F, has been someone I've liked. Plays solid on the PK, defensively responsible, & has chipped in 9G. A bit over paid by $400K or so, but not a bad player in my mind.

I get all that. The Ducks had 100% of the leverage. I'm pleased that Pittsburgh got what they wanted in a player-for-player deal rather than a more expensive plan-B guy like Petry. I really don't care if an additional 3rd rounder wasn't offered.

There is no way Etem or Perron are moved for a trade centered around Despres.
- Johnny Wrath

Is a late 1st rounder really all that much more valuable to the Oilers than a 23 yr old Dman with team control of 3 more yrs plus a 2nd rounder? I wouldn't think so, but then again the Oilers suck as making their team better.

And I use Etem as an example of the kind of return I would be looking for. The guy has 31 pts in 107 career games, including 10pts in 31 gms this season. He isn't setting the world on fire, but he has something there overall.

EDIT: Just as a barometer, Bennett has 30pts in 80gms the past 3 years. Etem has 1 more point (ie,31pts) in 27 more games over the same period of time.

I thought the Penguins got a great return for Neal.

I wasn't happy about it for the first hour or so, but then I read a bit about Hornquvist & changed my mind pretty quickly. It also helped that at first I thought Hornquvist was in his late 30's instead of being 27 at the time.

Even Spaling, one of the advancted stats whipping boys at F, has been someone I've liked. Plays solid on the PK, defensively responsible, & has chipped in 9G. A bit over paid by $400K or so, but not a bad player in my mind.
- s0rcerer1984

I'm not faulting the return. I'm pointing out how fans will justify a trade after the fact by selectively rationalizing it. I've heard arguments post-trade that Despres had behavior issues, wasn't a good fit in Johnston's system, lacked mobility, and didn't have the potential of being a top 4 dman. I rarely heard any of these positions until AFTER the trade.

I thought the Penguins got a great return for Neal.

I wasn't happy about it for the first hour or so, but then I read a bit about Hornquvist & changed my mind pretty quickly. It also helped that at first I thought Hornquvist was in his late 30's instead of being 27 at the time.

Even Spaling, one of the advancted stats whipping boys at F, has been someone I've liked. Plays solid on the PK, defensively responsible, & has chipped in 9G. A bit over paid by $400K or so, but not a bad player in my mind.
- s0rcerer1984

JR's moves have been pretty mechanical. Trading Neal meant that Malkin would probably have to shoot more and that the power play wouldn't be so right-wing boards-perimeter-based. I frankly never thought Neal could get a guy like PH. PH is exactly what the Penguins needed. We had better hope the coaching staff doesn't try to mess with his game or confuse things by keeping Kunitz out there. PH in front of the net all day.

Spaling is probably a guy JR thought would do better in the East. He hasn't; he's an expensive depth guy. Not a great move by any stretch but he's not Vitale, Gibbons, Jeffrey, nor Kobasew so it's automatically better.

I'm not faulting the return. I'm pointing out how fans will justify a trade after the fact by selectively rationalizing it. I've heard arguments post-trade that Despres had behavior issues, wasn't a good fit in Johnston's system, lacked mobility, and didn't have the potential of being a top 4 dman. I rarely heard any of these positions until AFTER the trade.
- jfkst1

Yeah. I hate that kind of stuff. Unless its something that is substantiated I don't care.

In a few seasons back the Steelers traded Santanio Holmes to the Jets for a 5th rounder, which sounds like it sucks. However, Holmes was suspended for 4gms that season due to drug test violations, so it totally makes sense.

I assume Ehrhoff might be cheaper than Martin in the offseason. That said I'd bring him Back on a 2-3years @ $5M. I'm a big fan of his game.

Yeah. I hate that kind of stuff. Unless its something that is substantiated I don't care.

In a few seasons back the Steelers traded Santanio Holmes to the Jets for a 5th rounder, which sounds like it sucks. However, Holmes was suspended for 4gms that season due to drug test violations, so it totally makes sense.
- s0rcerer1984

Was it only for a 5th RP? Sucked.

Btw I really like Antonio Brown and hope he sticks for years. Bell too.

I assume Ehrhoff might be cheaper than Martin in the offseason. That said I'd bring him Back on a 2-3years @ $5M. I'm a big fan of his game.
- Barnaby36

At their ages and abilities, I would be surprised if either accepted any contract for fewer than 4 years and less than $22m.

At their ages and abilities, I would be surprised if either accepted any contract for fewer than 4 years and less than $22m.
- jfkst1

Lets hope Ehrhoff is not That greedy. He already has the buyout money from Buffalo.

Is a late 1st rounder really all that much more valuable to the Oilers than a 23 yr old Dman with team control of 3 more yrs plus a 2nd rounder? I wouldn't think so, but then again the Oilers suck as making their team better.
Yes. 18 year old 1st round picks are more valuable than defenders who were developed by Dan Bylsma and scratched in favor of Mark Eaton. Second round picks have a 25.2% chance of playing in 300 games.

And I use Etem as an example of the kind of return I would be looking for. The guy has 31 pts in 107 career games, including 10pts in 31 gms this season. He isn't setting the world on fire, but he has something there overall.
EE had 10, 10, and 11 points in 38, 29, and 37 games splitting time between the Ducks and the AHL. I think he's being slowly developed as opposed to BB, who has been sputtering for these last three years. BB should really be in the AHL right this very moment. When they are both NHL regulars (assuming Beau doesn't decompose into a pile of bone dust and shiny teeth), I think EE will be a more consistent and valuable player.
EDIT: Just as a barometer, Bennett has 30pts in 80gms the past 3 years. Etem has 1 more point (ie,31pts) in 27 more games over the same period of time.
Would you be happy to have accepted Nick Holden in return for BB?
- s0rcerer1984

Was it only for a 5th RP? Sucked.

Btw I really like Antonio Brown and hope he sticks for years. Bell too.
- Barnaby36

From Wikipedia

On April 11, 2010, Holmes was traded to the New York Jets in exchange for a fifth-round pick in the 2010 NFL Draft.[7] (The Steelers eventually traded the pick to the Arizona Cardinals in exchange for a sixth round pick (Antonio Brown) and reacquiring Bryant McFadden. The Cardinals used the pick on quarterback John Skelton.) Shortly before the trade, the NFL announced that Holmes would be suspended for the first four games of the season due to a violation of the NFL's substance abuse policy.

I'm very much OK with the way the sequence of events played out.

Wow. Gunner staal. I just put 2 and 2 together.

From Wikipedia

On April 11, 2010, Holmes was traded to the New York Jets in exchange for a fifth-round pick in the 2010 NFL Draft.
- s0rcerer1984[7] (The Steelers eventually traded the pick to the Arizona Cardinals in exchange for a sixth round pick (Antonio Brown) and reacquiring Bryant McFadden. The Cardinals used the pick on quarterback John Skelton.) Shortly before the trade, the NFL announced that Holmes would be suspended for the first four games of the season due to a violation of the NFL's substance abuse policy.

I'm very much OK with the way the sequence of events played out.

haha great. Antonio Brown > Santonio Holmes IMO. Plus we got McFadden (I don't know if he's any good though)

I've been eating this blueberry cake my wife bought at her church over the past few days and it turns my poop green.. blue velvet=green poop

I've been eating this blueberry cake my wife bought at her church over the past few days and it turns my poop green.. blue velvet=green poop
- ChrisMS

Haha have you been eating grass or what

I'm fine with that, we're paying Ehroff 4M. If we can sign him to 3 years 3.5 it's a steal.
Also Lovejoy fits perfectly with Pouliot.
- Conse

Pouliot may outgrow him next year. If he's fine now & Pouliot is only finding his feet, imagine how good Pouliot is going to be next year (touch wood). Can't really compare Fowler to Pouliot & that's who Lovejoy has partnered. By that same token if Maatta comes good he & Tangers are going to be hard to deal with as a combination. Maybe a guy like Martin is required for Pouliot?

No; This one is going to bother me for a while.

I still think the return for Despres could/should have been more. Maybe I'm alone in this, but I can't help but think a team like the Stars or Oilers would have given more for Despres than just Lovejoy.
- s0rcerer1984

You're not alone!

You've got to reverse the trade a bit to understand. The Penguins really wanted Lovejoy. Had wanted to trade for him for months, by GMJR's own admission.

Lovejoy was unavailable probably until the Ducks traded for Wisniewski.

When Lovejoy was indeed available, I'm sure the Ducks were intent on a prospect D like Harrington in return. Look at what a pile of questionable trash like Coburn got to play the same role. If all it took to get Lovejoy was Despres, that's a win for the Penguins.

Maybe Despres becomes a nice player, maybe he doesn't. Maybe the Penguins have three better prospects who would have pushed Despres out by the time he's a RFA.

In all events, Despres had been rumored to be available going back to last season. If a higher return was out there I think it would have been realized. There wasn't a scenario wherein Pittsburgh was trading a Despres package for Jordan Eberle or Valeri Nichushkin. Trading Despres to fix the Penguins' slotting issue was more than enough return.
- Johnny Wrath

Strange this information apart from the JR wanting Lovejoy from the start of the season, wasn't made public. Last season Despres was put in the AHL by the powers that be so who would have wanted him? With the need for good young D this year please don't try & tell me Despres could not have got the Pens more than Lovejoy.

If Despres was shopped it went on very quietly so in a time of need - the Ducks making Lovejoy available putting them in a position of bargaining strength, JR (having shown his hand), was taken to the bank. That may be ok with you, but please don't say anything more about the depleted farm or bad prospects. Despres should have returned Lovejoy + a pick in my opinion from the Ducks. Time will tell what size contract Despres signs & if it's with the Ducks, which will indicate the real value of the trade. If Lovejoy helps win Stanley, Despres may well have also.