Sutter was never a smart flip flop. He's always been the same player. He just went through a hot streak during last year's playoffs and the beginning of this season.

I think RW is wrong about MAF being nothing but an average goalie. I think a lot of things factored into Fleury's downfall and none of them had to do with his ability. Still appreciate that Wilson has a valid opinion on the subject and doesn't give MAF the fair weather treatment like a lot of Pens fans do.
- Victoro311

MAF is an average goalie until he does above average things with his team. He hasnt done anything of the sort since 2008-2009. MAF is immensely talented to be fair, and often does well in regular season games, especially when the lights aren't very bright.

The difference between MAF and Guys like Price, Rinne, Lundquist, Rask is that their play in key situations takes their team to another level. MAF hasnt done that in almost 6 years. Thats why MAF gets a lot of criticism around these parts. And its not just the eye test, there are metrics--i.e. save %, home plate sv %, etc that back this up

They're not out there to score...not their job.
- hardnosed

When the team is having trouble scoring, they need to pick it up...they are zero threat to score...you act like they are out there to just skate around. That line is useless...its a freebee for the other team. The more they get played, the more free time it is for the other team. How is that helping the Pens at all?

The difference between MAF and Guys like Price, Rinne, Lundquist, Rask is that their play in key situations takes their team to another level. MAF hasnt done that in almost 6 years. Thats why MAF gets a lot of criticism around these parts. And its not just the eye test, there are metrics--i.e. save %, home plate sv %, etc that back this up
- Amanion

I just want to point out that Fleury has played in two Stanley Cup finals, and the four guys who listed have played in three. Also Rinne hasn't been past the 2nd round of the playoffs.

While I fully agree Fleury has wilted under playoff pressure, he is far from alone on this team in the last 6 years. He's the most glaring problem, but it's not like this team was perfect in front of him. The most damning would be his collapse against the Islanders in my opinion,

The 30 for 30 on the 1980 russian team is pretty amazing...

Malkin and Crosby can't play the whole game...you have to get secondary scoring, and you get none of that from the bottom two lines right now and you haven't gotten it fromt he 4th line pretty much all season. You think its difficult for them to score now, wait till the playoffs when the 4th line is zero threat to score. I mean, can you imagine getting 7-10 minutes of free time each game, because you have no fear of the 4th line?
- Thorny

You should listen to a game with Mike Lange commentating. Do you respect him as a judge of hockey? If you do you may be surprised at what you hear.

You don't want to see the bottom 6 advanced stats. Much like last season they are near the bottom of the league.
- Ben37

Seeing is believing - give me a graph I want a graph!

Look at other threads & it appears everyone is beating up their bottom 6 - even saw some comments from the Islanders boys (who coincidently haven't been around - is it because they hit a slump?). Considering our top 6 has had some of our bottom six for the last 3 months of course we will be riding rough.

Haha he's new. He missed all the blog posts over the summer about our bottom 6's metrics. Trust me Aussie, the advanced stats are 100% in line with his argument. Say what you want about RW. Love or hate him but he's consistent and doesn't flip flop.
- Victoro311

I've read the summer editions - with a huge Kudos to Ryan for writing them.

I see the points with the advanced stats (some I don't agree with the methods but it is what it is), but there are arguments on this site with other bloggers that throw a mix in when the stats cannot explain things. I'm not here bagging them like I said I just see holes in some arguments.

Ryan hates a few things & let's us know about them. I just see as much fault with the D not scoring as the F - most of them. I mentioned the other day a lot just aren't skilful enough. But that is me, I hear a lot from Mike Lange praising the efforts of the bottom six when all I see here is negative comments - Scuderi the same.

It's all in good spirit & fun to do especially pour moi who never sees the sport. It's interesting getting the different opinions & again I commend Ryan for his work & knowledge.

Edit: That should read that the forwards don't have enough skill not the D - the D just don't score enough.

You should listen to a game with Mike Lange commentating. Do you respect him as a judge of hockey? If you do you may be surprised at what you hear.
- Aussiepenguin

I do, but I also know he is an employee of the Penguins...so he has to tow the line.

I do, but I also know he is an employee of the Penguins...so he has to tow the line.
- Thorny

They both sound like pretty straight shooters - ol29er & Mike.

They even throw daggers at players & decisions that go for & against the Pens.

Are you implying their generosity towards Scuds is not kosher?

When the team is having trouble scoring, they need to pick it up...they are zero threat to score...you act like they are out there to just skate around. That line is useless...its a freebee for the other team. The more they get played, the more free time it is for the other team. How is that helping the Pens at all?
- Thorny

I'm not acting like anything. I'm just saying that if Rutherford and Johnston put out Sill/Lapierre/Adams to score goals, that's their fault because none of those three guys is going to contribute offensively on a regular basis. They're a classic energy line. If you disagree with that strategy, call for the heads of the coach and the GM. But the fact is, the 4th line is playing their role quite well lately given the reality of what their role is, which isn't scoring.

Like others have said, where's the defense beyond Letang when it comes to contributing offensively?

Martin has been saddled with a heavily defensive role, but was never a goal scorer to begin with.

Scuderi isn't paid to score goals.

Bortuzzo actually pushes offense more than a lot of the current D.

Despres has skill but it hasn't amounted to goal production.

Ehrhoff has been an utter disappointment offensively, missing the net with breathtaking frequency.

Pouliot scored on his first shot and hasn't scored in 12 games since.

For all the talk of throwing pucks on net and getting traffic that we hear from Johnston, they haven't actually done much of it.

Point is, it's a lot more realistic to ask Crosby and Malkin to produce at their career average levels, or for the defense to contribute offensively from time to time than to expect the 4th line to lift the offense when it needs help.

Trade day today. Everyone get ready to be shocked

Trade day today. Everyone get ready to be shocked
- dbell646

Downie for Rinaldo?!?

Downie for Rinaldo?!?
- hardnosed

I think I just threw up in my mouth a little bit reading that

Downie for Rinaldo?!?
- hardnosed

Sill for vitale

Sill for vitale
- dbell646

I'd actually do that though

I just want to point out that Fleury has played in two Stanley Cup finals, and the four guys who listed have played in three. Also Rinne hasn't been past the 2nd round of the playoffs.

While I fully agree Fleury has wilted under playoff pressure, he is far from alone on this team in the last 6 years. He's the most glaring problem, but it's not like this team was perfect in front of him. The most damning would be his collapse against the Islanders in my opinion,
- Ben37

Perfectly said. Good post.

MAF has been part of the problem in the playoffs. He hasn't been THE problem most folks have made him out to be come playoff time.

Truth is they lost the past few seasons because they couldn't score goals. I put more blame on 87, 71, 58, 14, and Neal than I do MAF.

And yes, MAF was a car wreck in the Isles series. No defending that one... I think that's the one series where he truly could have been blamed if they had lost. And if they kept him in there, they would have lost. Folks don't give Bylsma enough credit for pulling him IMO. THat took some guts.

I'd actually do that though
- Guile

Kind of a lateral move

Kind of a lateral move
- dbell646

Yep, but I just see a bit more upside potential with Vitale... plus the hatred and disgust with Sill will be gone.

edit: The real question.. If both cost the same.... Sill or Glass?

Yep, but I just see a bit more upside potential with Vitale... plus the hatred and disgust with Sill will be gone.

edit: The real question.. If both cost the same.... Sill or Glass?
- Guile

I'd go Sill.

MAF is an average goalie until he does above average things with his team. He hasnt done anything of the sort since 2008-2009. MAF is immensely talented to be fair, and often does well in regular season games, especially when the lights aren't very bright.

The difference between MAF and Guys like Price, Rinne, Lundquist, Rask is that their play in key situations takes their team to another level. MAF hasnt done that in almost 6 years. Thats why MAF gets a lot of criticism around these parts. And its not just the eye test, there are metrics--i.e. save %, home plate sv %, etc that back this up
- Amanion

Ok let me get this straight you are waiting for MAF to prove to you in the playoffs he can do it but yet you have listed these 3 fellas...... ok then.


MAF 1 ring the other elite goalies you listed.....0

Yep, but I just see a bit more upside potential with Vitale... plus the hatred and disgust with Sill will be gone.

edit: The real question.. If both cost the same.... Sill or Glass?
- Guile

I'd go with seven Dmen.

I'd go with seven Dmen.
- madmike71

So bring back Engelland?

So bring back Engelland?
- Guile

And people scoffed at the 4 or 5 goals he scored as a 4th line forward last year.

And people scoffed at the 4 or 5 goals he scored as a 4th line forward last year.
- hardnosed

Well, for just under 3 mil a year, I am still scoffing.

Well, for just under 3 mil a year, I am still scoffing.
- Guile

Well, he wasn't making that much last year as a Penguin.

And I'm pretty sure they only signed him so their team bus wouldn't tip over in a stiff wind. That's a team of midgets.