This just doesn't cut it in the NHL today. Two scoring lines, a checking line, and an 'energy' line is an outdated model. You need four lines that can control play and aren't a liability.
- Stillson14

of course you do, but there's a difference between what you need and what is realistic.

how many teams have that luxury right now? LA? probably. Chicago? probably. but who else?

when the penguins get comeau and bennett back, that's the key. archbello sucks. it was a good idea but it wont work out. it is the same thing as pyatt last year. you dont trade for him, but if you have nothing to lose why not take a shot. get comeau with malkin and try bennett with sutter again.

penguins need 3 good lines and a 4th line that plays hard and brings energy. you shouldnt look at points for a 4th line because of course it will be low. thats like looking at the first line to see how many hits and fights each of them have.

when you get shut out, look at your stars. no one on the nucks justifies getting shut out.

Blame those who produce and protect those who don't. RW is simply saying that this isn't a fourth line you can win with and the third line isn't pulling their weight.
He isn't asking for Adams or Sill to become scorers, he is simply pointing out that they are not part of the solution. They can't be your fourth line if you want to win. He isn't lying, they aren't NHL caliber.

Blame those who produce and protect those who don't. RW is simply saying that this isn't a fourth line you can win with and the third line isn't pulling their weight.
He isn't asking for Adams or Sill to become scorers, he is simply pointing out that they are not part of the solution. They can't be your fourth line if you want to win. He isn't lying, they aren't NHL caliber.
- usethe1-2-2

To me this is the biggest problem with the construction of this team. The third line, Sutter in particular is trash. They get nothing from them on a regular basis. I believe the 2nd line issues will get worked out. I have no such optimism that the 3rd or 4th will improve.

Sutter is offering a whole new level of suck for him. 19 pts in 51 games isn't going to cut it.

Edit... Spaling too. He has an occasional good game followed by 5 of invisibility.

Malkins line needs to change, he is trying to do too much and teams are focusing entirely on him and it's working. Hornqvist does not fit with Malkin, end the experiment.
The 3rd line is terrible.
I like the 4th line, especially when players return and we can move Spaling or Downie there.
Downie Lapierre Adams is a great 4th line. I disagree entirely with RW and his moneyball approach on everything. You absolutely need a 4th line that hits and hits and then hits a few more times.

The team is so inconsistent right now. I'm positive JR will make another move or two hopefully whatever moves he makes shakes up the third line.

To me this is the biggest problem with the construction of this team. The third line, Sutter in particular is trash. They get nothing from them on a regular basis. I believe the 2nd line issues will get worked out. I have no such optimism that the 3rd or 4th will improve.

Sutter is offering a whole new level of suck for him. 19 pts in 51 games isn't going to cut it.

Edit... Spaling too. He has an occasional good game followed by 5 of invisibility.
- madmike71

The good news is Beau and Blake knock two guys out of the lineup. But Marco is still a better fourth line option than Sill. He isn't a top six, or a left wing, but he is playing both right now.
He is what you want to have as depth. With Spaling and Lappy that is a decent 4th line.
But Sutter, he's done in my book. He generates nothing on his own. Building a team that wins means strong centers who can carry the play, he can't. Winnik does a better job of that despite being less offensively inclined.

Malkins line needs to change, he is trying to do too much and teams are focusing entirely on him and it's working. Hornqvist does not fit with Malkin, end the experiment.
The 3rd line is terrible.
I like the 4th line, especially when players return and we can move Spaling or Downie there.
Downie Lapierre Adams is a great 4th line. I disagree entirely with RW and his moneyball approach on everything. You absolutely need a 4th line that hits and hits and then hits a few more times.

The team is so inconsistent right now. I'm positive JR will make another move or two hopefully whatever moves he makes shakes up the third line.
- stackthepads

I still find it amazing that the 4th line gets blamed for last night. I agree that the depth is lacking... but this "inconsistency falls on the shoulders of 1) the coach, 2) Crosby, Malkin, Letang ... The blaming Sill, Adams and Scuds routine is getting old... Plane and simple... this team is not very good right now... The best players are not playing like the best players...

Blaming Greiss for last night is ridiculous!!! NO he did not play well... that being said, How many odd man rushes came his way????

So the supposed goaltender who some folks claimed would be a better replacement for MAF plays terribly yet again, Sid and Geno are again invisible, and we lay blame on the 4th line?

Got it.
- 87_71_11_29

So what you're saying is that Crosby and Malkin, or by extension someone on their line, have to up their game and start factoring in on more than the 80 percent/higher of all our points scoredthab they already do.

All the while the fourth and the third and he'll even the defense outside of Letang continue to get a (frank)ing pass. It's overhalf way through the (frank)ing season and people still live with their heads up their asses pulling out any excuse for the bottom six, especially the plugs.

Sure let's female dog about so much cap being tied up in three or four people but when they or someone on their lines are the only ones doing anything (frank)ing meaningful let's turnout heads and ignore the other 60 percent of the team.

Got it. It makes no (frank)ing sense but I got it.

Blame those who produce and protect those who don't. RW is simply saying that this isn't a fourth line you can win with and the third line isn't pulling their weight.
- usethe1-2-2

Sure it is. It's defensively responsible, brings energy, and can eat 5-7 even strength minutes in the playoffs.

The third line isn't that far outside the norm in terms of productivity. Sutter is on an 18 goal pace. Spaling and Downie are on Cooke and Kennedy kind of paces.

Crosby and Malkin are both producing below their career averages, significantly so in the case of Crosby.

Outside Letang, the Penguins are getting no offense and especially no goals out of their defense.

And the power play has been disappointing since the first month of the season.

Those three areas are much more legitimate fixes than dramatically fixing the 4th line, aside from the natural bump that should come with Comeau's return.

So what you're saying is that Crosby and Malkin, or by extension someone on their line, have to up their game and start factoring in on more than the 80 percent/higher of all our points scoredthab they already do.

All the while the fourth and the third and he'll even the defense outside of Letang continue to get a (frank)ing pass. It's overhalf way through the (frank)ing season and people still live with their heads up their asses pulling out any excuse for the bottom six, especially the plugs.

Sure let's female dog about so much cap being tied up in three or four people but when they or someone on their lines are the only ones doing anything (frank)ing meaningful let's turnout heads and ignore the other 60 percent of the team.

Got it. It makes no (frank)ing sense but I got it.
- ImScore71

Malkin was a turnover machine last night.

Crosby had one shot. Sill had 3.

Neither was very good last night, did you watch the game?

No matter the depth, Crosby and Malkin will determine how far the Penguins go in the playoffs. Right now, they're showing a disturbing tendency to wilt against teams with even a little bit of size.

I'm not particularly worried about either one. Plenty of time left for them to pick it up.

Frankly, Crosby looks rightly disinterested in the regular season. I'm hoping he's saving beast mode for when it matters.

Just remember as well that superstar Crosby was shut down by a 19 year old rookie.
- JameyVinnick

Miller is like 30

MJ needs to keep jumbling these lines until more than 1 clicks. Kuni-sid-horn was dominant at the beginning and maybe perron can find some magic with malkin. I'd like to see downie-sutter-bennett play as the 3rd line for a few games to see how they work. I'd like to see arcobello stay permanently as he's been pretty decent. Spaling can be traded for some chineese take out to free up some cap room.

I love how people think no "true" Pens fan can criticize their team. I attended the Nashville snooze-fest and was very critical in my seats of having to see Sill and Adams on the ice constantly. I am paying almost $100 a seat to see Sill and Adams have as much ice as 87 did that day? A couple people around me accused me of not being a real Penguins fan because I was so negative.

Get shut out by a ho-hum Vancouver team and Ryan Miller.
1)Plenty of blame to go around. Start with 87 and 71
2) RW's point about the 4th line is that on nights when 87 and 71 don't have it, someone else has to produce. That simply cant happen with Sill and Adams.
3) Clearly a 5-0 loss in which it appeared that Canucks players were skating circles around most of the Pens is the goaltender's fault. This lame argument from the same people who wouldn't blame MAF for a loss if he shot the puck into his own net in OT.

I love my Pens and Im tired of watching them waste the opportunities they have with the talent on their roster. Im just as tired of hearing from idiot fans who don't know hockey that I am a bad fan because I refuse to be content with 2-3 bad games a week and aborted playoff runs seemingly each and every year.

Sure it is. It's defensively responsible, brings energy, and can eat 5-7 even strength minutes in the playoffs.

The third line isn't that far outside the norm in terms of productivity. Sutter is on an 18 goal pace. Spaling and Downie are on Cooke and Kennedy kind of paces.

Crosby and Malkin are both producing below their career averages, significantly so in the case of Crosby.

Outside Letang, the Penguins are getting no offense and especially no goals out of their defense.

And the power play has been disappointing since the first month of the season.

Those three areas are much more legitimate fixes than dramatically fixing the 4th line, aside from the natural bump that should come with Comeau's return.
- hardnosed

Spaling played half season top six, his production is not good enough.
Sutter has not played well. 18 goals is not going to cut it if he isn't bringing anything else to the table. He's been weak and can't carry the play. Downie shows him up every night, that's pathetic for his cap hit.
4th lines just shouldn't survive anymore. That's an outdated philosophy and doesn't work.

I'm sorry that you can't see that. And also, Fleury leads the league in shutouts but has a rather average save%. He is inconsistent this season and needs to be better.

You know, JR and MJ are salvaging a sinking ship, leading them to a great season despite another ridiculous injury bug, and people here are female doging about the pieces that are actually part of the solution.

More change is coming, there is no doubt, but if you think we can turn around the franchise in 9 months after five years of crap, then you need a franking wake up call.

You know, JR and MJ are salvaging a sinking ship, leading them to a great season despite another ridiculous injury bug, and people here are female doging about the pieces that are actually part of the solution.

More change is coming, there is no doubt, but if you think we can turn around the franchise in 9 months after five years of crap, then you need a franking wake up call.
- usethe1-2-2

5 years of crap? Talk to oilers fans first before you say that.

Goalies are least of the Pens' problems. Fleury is among the best in the league and Greiss is one of the best backups (but not a starter). Both Fleury's and Greiss's biggest problem is getting hung out to dry again and again by the rest of the team.

The Pens three biggest problems (in order) are:
1. Bad turnovers and passes in the defensive zone, even very close to the goaltender. Crosby and Malkin are both frequently guilty of this but certainly are not the only ones on who do it. It is ridiculous to blame the goaltender when they give goals after these turnovers. Lack of responsibility with the puck is killing this team and will definitely kill it in the playoffs.

2. Only having one good veteran puck-moving defenseman who can set up the offense (Letang). Martin and Harrington are decent at defense but not good at setting up the offense. The rest are either underdeveloped (Pouliot and Despres) or really bad (Scuderi, Bortuzzo, and Ehrhoff).

3. Frequently getting injured. The team doesn't necessarily need more aggression and hitting but rather to be able to take the hitting and abuse from other teams better. The worst example of this is Ehrhoff's hit on Ovechkin. Ehrhoff initiated the hit, bounced off, got injured, and Ovi got called for a penalty.

5 years of crap? Talk to oilers fans first before you say that.
- drummer829

Poor drafting strategies, poor ufa choices, and even worse decisions made at an administrative level.
Yah, it was five tears of crap. Crosby, Malkin, Letang and a few others lifted this team way beyond what they should have been.
Gm JR ain't done yet. Let's see what he has planned.

Miller is like 30
- drummer829

Horvat's not.

I love how people think no "true" Pens fan can criticize their team. I attended the Nashville snooze-fest and was very critical in my seats of having to see Sill and Adams on the ice constantly. I am paying almost $100 a seat to see Sill and Adams have as much ice as 87 did that day? A couple people around me accused me of not being a real Penguins fan because I was so negative.

Get shut out by a ho-hum Vancouver team and Ryan Miller.
1)Plenty of blame to go around. Start with 87 and 71
2) RW's point about the 4th line is that on nights when 87 and 71 don't have it, someone else has to produce. That simply cant happen with Sill and Adams.
3) Clearly a 5-0 loss in which it appeared that Canucks players were skating circles around most of the Pens is the goaltender's fault. This lame argument from the same people who wouldn't blame MAF for a loss if he shot the puck into his own net in OT.

I love my Pens and Im tired of watching them waste the opportunities they have with the talent on their roster. Im just as tired of hearing from idiot fans who don't know hockey that I am a bad fan because I refuse to be content with 2-3 bad games a week and aborted playoff runs seemingly each and every year.
- Amanion

I completely agree with your analysis. A lot people on here get up in arms because you criticize a Pens player and God forbid it happens to be Sid you're criticizing. It's funny to see people blaming Greiss but if Fluery was in net they would make excuses saying the team in front of him didn't help and that Fluery was hung out to dry all night.

There is more wrong than just adding another top 6 forward to the team. Also people are delusional if they think the young D are NHL ready. You may see flashes of some decent play from them but they are not NHL ready. Coach Johnston needs some blame too, all these excuses about him experimenting with lines are pathetic. I've never seen or heard of another coach experimenting with lines this long. I'm not an expert but put a couple lines together with players that work together well and the others you can mess with until you can find something that seems to work. You don't keep interchanging players all up and down different lines it just doesn't work and you can't get any cohesion with the players.

Ok Ryan, so use advanced stats numbers for the argument about why we won easily then turn around throw the advanced stats away & use the eye test for your argument against our bottom six?

What does advanced stats say about the bottom six or are you trying not to use them so people don't berate you? Which is possible.

I think rather than beat the horse further turn your attention to our D. Who has been producing & who hasn't? You mentioned contenders all of which have points & more importantly goals from their D. Our D is poor when it comes to providing offensive totals.

Another quicky, both you & Tanner stated more possession & shots = more goals. I disagree with that assessment completely. It may equal more opportunities to score but definitely not what you & Tanner have said. Your point about shut outs justifies my opinion. How many shots does it take before a goal is scored?

Sorry for the negativity but 0-5 always gets me down!

Poor drafting strategies, poor ufa choices, and even worse decisions made at an administrative level.
Yah, it was five tears of crap. Crosby, Malkin, Letang and a few others lifted this team way beyond what they should have been.
Gm JR ain't done yet. Let's see what he has planned.
- usethe1-2-2

Pens ran into a hot goalie with rask and lundqvist for 2 of those years. Also remember Halak with the Canadiens back in the day? Pens had some poopy playoff series, but there were some where they got robbed

Pens ran into a hot goalie with rask and lundqvist for 2 of those years. Also remember Halak with the Canadiens back in the day? Pens had some poopy playoff series, but there were some where they got robbed
- drummer829

Halak was unreal that year, BUT.... at least 2 of the losses in that series can be directly hung on MAF. So if he doesnt squander away game 4 and game 6 in Montreal, the Pens win the series anyway.

Pens ran into a hot goalie with rask and lundqvist for 2 of those years. Also remember Halak with the Canadiens back in the day? Pens had some poopy playoff series, but there were some where they got robbed
- drummer829

Haha, no the only one that was the hot goalie was Halak. We actually generated offense against him.
The past three years we just got flat out beat because of bad coaching and apoor structure. Its now catching up to us.
The funny thing is you people mad at Johnston need to cool it. It takes time to develop players and get your team to actually be your team. It doesn't happen overnight. The cup chances this season were slim to begin with. Getting Perron and Hornqvist are moves for the future as much as they are moves for the now.

Haha, no the only one that was the hot goalie was Halak. We actually generated offense against him.
The past three years we just got flat out beat because of bad coaching and apoor structure. Its now catching up to us.
The funny thing is you people mad at Johnston need to cool it. It takes time to develop players and get your team to actually be your team. It doesn't happen overnight. The cup chances this season were slim to begin with. Getting Perron and Hornqvist are moves for the future as much as they are moves for the now.
- usethe1-2-2

When you have a team with sid and malkin, every year is a possibility to win the Stanley cup. You're making it seem like the team is rebuilding. Johnston and JR only have a couple years to prove they can bring the team over the top and win a Stanley cup.

for those defending the bottom line, please name me one that they are better than in the NHL right now. They have what, 2 points in their last 14 games or so? I hate the defense that they arent out there to score, I am tired of watching Adams bounce off people, I am tired of seeing Sill bring nothing to the table...its a wasted shift every time they are out there. If they are getting 10 minutes of ice time, then thats 10 out of 60 that you know the Pens aren't a threat to score, so now that puts even more pressure on the top line...when you add in how piss poor the 3rd line is, now you might get about half a game where the Pens are a threat to score, have to think you arent going to win very many games that way. There is soo much wrong with this team, other things to worry about then the goalies at the moment.