This team is built around six key players; toews, Kane, hossa, sharp, Keith, Seabrook,. Nearly everyone else is more or less interchangeable parts. Lose one of these six and I think the teams chance at a cup drops dramatically. Lose any one of the rest and theyre replaceable. These six are now moving to an average age of 30 or more, pieces need to start being replaced. Rentals won't do it. Saad? Maybe but he needs to start closing. TT? Not looking like it frankly. Mcniel? Dunno. Trade is the most likely source and SB hasn't shown cajones for it.
- fvineze

Do u know how wrong you are? Its like off the charts wrong....not just your normal garden variety wrong we're talking about here. This is an extreme case.

Awesome analysis! For what its worth, Mike Smith also had some of the worst trades and draft picks I have ever seen compared to Dale but of course that is not within the scope of the debate regarding who gets the lion's share of credit for the two cups. The thing I always admired about Tallon was his ability to recognize and correct his mistakes (e.g., Aucoin). Tallon was very aggressive as a GM and still is whereas Stan Bowman is overly cautious in the mold of Pulford. For my money I would take Tallon. In any case, this was a very thoughtful analysis which I thoroughly enjoyed! Thanks JJ.
- FourOrr

That's a load of crap. He made some bad picks for sure, all GM's do, but he also made some really good ones, without which the Hawks likely wouldn't have won two cups in the last 5 years.

Some of his more notable Hawk picks include...

Brent Seabrook

Duncan Keith

Dustin Byfuglien

Corey Crawford

Adam Burish

James Wisniewski

Tuomo Ruutu

Great blog JJ

In so many words, you put down which has been my biggest criticism of Stan for a few years now.

Yes, Stan re-tooled some of the roster to win us a second cup, but for the most part, hes still re-shuffling Tallons hand

The way I would put it, Tallon is playing 7 card draw, got up to take a piss, Bowman sat down to play his cards, held on to the Aces and Kings, asked the dealer for two.

Yea, Bowman made the decisions, but Tallon gave him a premium draw from the moment he took over

The kind of players Stan has had to replace are complimentary pieces to guys like Seabrook, Kane, Toews, Keith, Hossa, Hjalmarsson, Sharp

You could argue that well, Bowmans credit is he made the right decisions to keep the right guys and let the right expendable guys go. I cant argue that.

We are on the horizon, with the new wonder twins extensions coming up, of likely having to shed one of the first "core" guys from the first cup. It will then really, IMO, be Bowmans first opportunity to really start putting his imprint on this team

Mike Smith also drafted James Wisniewski and Adam Burish (albeit in the ninth round).
- hawks2010

Bolland was also drafted by Smith not Tallon.

Bolland was also drafted by Smith not Tallon.
- BearsnHawks

As was Brouwer.. Unless my dates are off.... Pretty sure they were drafted in 2004 while Tallon took over in 2005.

That's a load of crap. He made some bad picks for sure, all GM's do, but he also made some really good ones, without which the Hawks likely wouldn't have won two cups in the last 5 years.

Some of his more notable Hawk picks include...

Brent Seabrook

Duncan Keith

Dustin Byfuglien

Corey Crawford

Adam Burish

James Wisniewski

Tuomo Ruutu
- Ogilthorpe2

Are you stuck somewhere or were you able to make it back?

Are you stuck somewhere or were you able to make it back?
- Elbows15

I'm home...was off the last couple of days thankfully. Venture back out tomorrow.

Is there're a point to the Smith vs Tallon vs Bowman vs Bowman debate?

As with most NHL teams there are several people responsible for the current composition. Does it matter that Smith drafted better than Tallon? We had/have some very good hockey minds contribute to the success of our team. I'm more concerned with the pending cap crunch than arguing about who had more input on the current roster.

Is there're a point to the Smith vs Tallon vs Bowman vs Bowman debate?

As with most NHL teams there are several people responsible for the current composition. Does it matter that Smith drafted better than Tallon? We had/have some very good hockey minds contribute to the success of our team. I'm more concerned with the pending cap crunch than arguing about who had more input on the current roster.
- DarthKane

I don't think a GM's work can be evaluated properly unless he has had 5 years on the job. Coming up to that anniversary for Bowman.

The cap crunch as you call it is going to result in some players being flushed maybe a little prematurely - probably Bickell and Oduya, maybe Sharp, maybe even Crawford if it gets that bad. Not necessarily a bad thing if Bowman has restocked the shelves adequately with the draft picks, trades and free agent signings he has overseen. Gonna find out.

I'm thinking Stan should just pull a Jerry Krause and break up the whole team so he can start over and prove once and for all if he knows what he's doing. Maybe then some of these Hawk "fans" will be satisfied.

FFS, this is the Golden age of being a Hawks fan. If he best thing we have to talk about is to rehash Tallon vs Bowman for the umpteenth time, then that's pretty pathetic.
- Ogilthorpe2

It's a head scratcher and odd to see all the posts demanding Stan to sack up and make a big trade.

Unless he trades one of the core guys this year any trade he makes will be one termed as minor and as far as next year the team won't be in a position to take on a contract of any significance even if one's dealt.

Yep, Blow It Up Stan, so we can have some real hockey trades!

This team is built around six key players; toews, Kane, hossa, sharp, Keith, Seabrook,. Nearly everyone else is more or less interchangeable parts. Lose one of these six and I think the teams chance at a cup drops dramatically. Lose any one of the rest and theyre replaceable. These six are now moving to an average age of 30 or more, pieces need to start being replaced. Rentals won't do it. Saad? Maybe but he needs to start closing. TT? Not looking like it frankly. Mcniel? Dunno. Trade is the most likely source and SB hasn't shown cajones for it.
- fvineze

Trade is not the most likely source other than to add a complimentary piece here or there at this point as there is nothing to rebuild yet.

I'll give you McNeil, but Saad and TT I'm not sure what you're looking for. Saad is on pace for about 25 goals in what amounts to his second full season (even though it's his third with the shortened season, but I thought I'd explain as it seems necessary when you're involved).

TT at 20 yrs old and after playing not even 15 NHL games is not looking like what? Look at two Wing fwds, Tatar and Nyquist who didn't start playing regularly til last year at ages 23 and 24.

Nyquist had his breakout year last year at 24 and Tatar this year at age 24. Point is neither of those guys looked like they were going to set the world on fire initially and you are giving TT a failing grade after a cup of coffee here.

Great blog JJ

In so many words, you put down which has been my biggest criticism of Stan for a few years now.

Yes, Stan re-tooled some of the roster to win us a second cup, but for the most part, hes still re-shuffling Tallons hand

The way I would put it, Tallon is playing 7 card draw, got up to take a piss, Bowman sat down to play his cards, held on to the Aces and Kings, asked the dealer for two.

Yea, Bowman made the decisions, but Tallon gave him a premium draw from the moment he took over

The kind of players Stan has had to replace are complimentary pieces to guys like Seabrook, Kane, Toews, Keith, Hossa, Hjalmarsson, Sharp

You could argue that well, Bowmans credit is he made the right decisions to keep the right guys and let the right expendable guys go. I cant argue that.

We are on the horizon, with the new wonder twins extensions coming up, of likely having to shed one of the first "core" guys from the first cup. It will then really, IMO, be Bowmans first opportunity to really start putting his imprint on this team
- FourFeathers773

Spot on here...personally I still don't like what they did to Dale. Dale played here, worked the booth here and wanted to win as bad as anyone. But he wasn't a yes man. I still would have liked to have seen what Dale would have done with this team after they won the cup in 2010.

No question McD is a marketing whiz...but in all his time with the Cubs did they win...? Nothing happens without the talent on the ice. Reconnecting with Pat Foley and the old guard no brainers as well as putting the home games finally on TV. Hiring a bunch of young guns to run the offices, and to ramp up and connect to the young fan base...same.

Bowman didn't get a whole lot from the cap purge and completely whiffed on the bonus' in certainly players contracts that cost them. We can also talk about the RFA qualifiers the season before the cup - Stan was/is the capologist and everyone laid that on Dale.

I'm still waiting for Stan to put his imprint on the team...no question he has brought in some nice complimentary parts to fill in around key players. But last spring after they fell short I thought he should have done more to try to retool the team in particular on defense. He addressed the center depth issue by adding Richards.

But the Hawks still look small down the middle and still could use a veteran physical dman to move people out of the front of the net. So we'll see what Stan has up his sleeve here going to the TDL.

Meanwhile with the big deals for T/K coming this summer as well as the cap purge we'll see where Stan really stacks up. Some of the core is certainly gone and he'll have to make some moves to reshape the roster. It certainly will be interesting especially if JJ's comments about the Bowman regime trying to 'win' every trade are still there.

Overall a good read and some great insight on some of the other people involved in constructing this team.

One statement I don't really agree with is this one:

Bowman has shown himself to be highly cautious when it comes to trades—where Tallon was fearless to a fault. Some might say discretion is the better part of valor. But Tallon’s record in trades (at least in Chicago) was also remarkable.


How was Tallon fearless when it came to trades?

Getting Marty Havlat, who had one more year on his deal and Ottawa didn't think they could resign, for Mark Bell was a great move but I wouldn't call it fearless.

While great trades for the Hawks, Sharp for Ellison and Versteeg for Bochenski don't really fall under that umbrella either as none of these players were really established NHL'ers.

Possibly Ruutuu for Ladd but I believe when Ruutuu was traded he wasn't getting top 6 minutes, was no longer the face of the franchise and was coming off the second knee injury of his career (could be wrong about that last part but pretty sure that was the case).

Don't get me wrong, Tallon definitely made some great trades but I think it's debatable how much he stood to lose. He did a great job of assembling the core and I think Stan has done a decent job of identifying key members of it and keeping them together.
- HawkintheD

A bit of an unfair comparison: whether talking about FA signings or trades, Tallon has never had to worry about running into the salary cap, either here or in Miami; he could afford to (and to a certain extent had to) overpay to bring in talent (or get over the floor); he could trade dollar for dollar (or bring back more in salary than he gave up).

Bowman has never been the GM of a team that wasn't up against the cap - no big FA signings without moving assets, no trades without moving larger assets than were coming back, this summer will be the fourth that he will gave to move important assets for prospects and pucks just to be cap compliant.

I don't know how good Tallon would be in a tight cap situation, or how good Bowman would be in a more "normal" situation (although this is probably "normal" for a continuously contending team).

Trade is not the most likely source other than to add a complimentary piece here or there at this point as there is nothing to rebuild yet.

I'll give you McNeil, but Saad and TT I'm not sure what you're looking for. Saad is on pace for about 25 goals in what amounts to his second full season (even though it's his third with the shortened season, but I thought I'd explain as it seems necessary when you're involved).

TT at 20 yrs old and after playing not even 15 NHL games is not looking like what? Look at two Wing fwds, Tatar and Nyquist who didn't start playing regularly til last year at ages 23 and 24.

Nyquist had his breakout year last year at 24 and Tatar this year at age 24. Point is neither of those guys looked like they were going to set the world on fire initially and you are giving TT a failing grade after a cup of coffee here.


- HawkintheD

TT can't be evaluated until he matures physically by adding 20 pounds to his frame
That increased weight may take a few years to acquire

As was Brouwer.. Unless my dates are off.... Pretty sure they were drafted in 2004 while Tallon took over in 2005.
- BearsnHawks

Pretty sure they were Tallon picks. 99% certain it was hius draft in 2004.

Mike Smith also drafted James Wisniewski and Adam Burish (albeit in the ninth round).
- hawks2010

Smith was fired during the 2003-04 season. Tallon was not officially named GM til later. 2004 was his draft.

Spot on here...personally I still don't like what they did to Dale. Dale played here, worked the booth here and wanted to win as bad as anyone. But he wasn't a yes man. I still would have liked to have seen what Dale would have done with this team after they won the cup in 2010.

No question McD is a marketing whiz...but in all his time with the Cubs did they win...? Nothing happens without the talent on the ice. Reconnecting with Pat Foley and the old guard no brainers as well as putting the home games finally on TV. Hiring a bunch of young guns to run the offices, and to ramp up and connect to the young fan base...same.

Bowman didn't get a whole lot from the cap purge and completely whiffed on the bonus' in certainly players contracts that cost them. We can also talk about the RFA qualifiers the season before the cup - Stan was/is the capologist and everyone laid that on Dale.

I'm still waiting for Stan to put his imprint on the team...no question he has brought in some nice complimentary parts to fill in around key players. But last spring after they fell short I thought he should have done more to try to retool the team in particular on defense. He addressed the center depth issue by adding Richards.

But the Hawks still look small down the middle and still could use a veteran physical dman to move people out of the front of the net. So we'll see what Stan has up his sleeve here going to the TDL.

Meanwhile with the big deals for T/K coming this summer as well as the cap purge we'll see where Stan really stacks up. Some of the core is certainly gone and he'll have to make some moves to reshape the roster. It certainly will be interesting especially if JJ's comments about the Bowman regime trying to 'win' every trade are still there.
- DK002

Of course the Hawks aren't winning without the talent on the ice but I think dismissing some of the major moves as no brainers isn't exactly spot on.

After Dollar Bill passed away and the family didn't sell the team, when you heard one of the sons was taking over, would you have assumed any of the moves you mention above?

While they were things the Hawks should have done years ago, ego pride other things got in the way and they didn't. McDonough and staff have brought the marketing of the team into the 21st century. They seem to use every outlet at their disposal and have helped bring back the disgruntled fans and a host of new ones.

While the previous bar had been set at non-exisatant the point is someone is not only marketing the team but doing it well.

A bit of an unfair comparison: whether talking about FA signings or trades, Tallon has never had to worry about running into the salary cap, either here or in Miami; he could afford to (and to a certain extent had to) overpay to bring in talent (or get over the floor); he could trade dollar for dollar (or bring back more in salary than he gave up).

Bowman has never been the GM of a team that wasn't up against the cap - no big FA signings without moving assets, no trades without moving larger assets than were coming back, this summer will be the fourth that he will gave to move important assets for prospects and pucks just to be cap compliant.

I don't know how good Tallon would be in a tight cap situation, or how good Bowman would be in a more "normal" situation (although this is probably "normal" for a continuously contending team).
- StLBravesFan

Agree, their situations are completely different. Dale has this rep of being Trader Jack but other than the Havlat trade (and maybe not even that one) how many blockbuster trades did he make in Chicago?

TT can't be evaluated until he matures physically by adding 20 pounds to his frame
That increased weight may take a few years to acquire
- molly2522

Like Patrick Kane?

Like Patrick Kane?
- paulr

Or Kruger?

TT is listed at 5'11" / 176 lbs. If that's the case I'd be happy with another 10. Both Tatar and Nyquist are listed at 5'11" and 185 and 186 respectively.

TT definitely has some skill and I think Nyquist as a comparison would be a realistic expectation of where TT's game could possibly be when he's 24.

Agree, their situations are completely different. Dale has this rep of being Trader Jack but other than the Havlat trade (and maybe not even that one) how many blockbuster trades did he make in Chicago?
- HawkintheD

Tallon's trades turned out to be home runs but he did it without putting his neck on the line by making blockbusters. At the time of each trade they were considered either safe or insignificant. Talon's best work was in assembling the team and in making it a "family". Tallon was involved at a personal level with the team unlike the professional level Bowman takes. Who can forget that bus ride the whoe team took to northern Ontario to be with Tallon when his father passed away.

Or Kruger?

TT is listed at 5'11" / 176 lbs. If that's the case I'd be happy with another 10. Both Tatar and Nyquist are listed at 5'11" and 185 and 186 respectively.

TT definitely has some skill and I think Nyquist as a comparison would be a realistic expectation of where TT's game could possibly be when he's 24.
- HawkintheD

So far TT's progression is fine for an injury replacement.

Good discussion. But, need to also attribute responsibility for cap management. There is a train wreck coming. Cap will likely be no higher than $67.2m next year.

I assume Bowman alone owns responsibility for the $76m committed to 14 players next year. How ugly will this get?

Agree, their situations are completely different. Dale has this rep of being Trader Jack but other than the Havlat trade (and maybe not even that one) how many blockbuster trades did he make in Chicago?
- HawkintheD

Go back and read the blog. Blockbusters? No. Trades he clearly won, yes and numerous ones.

Anecdotally, Tallon's tendency to go off the reservation a bit might have contributed to the issues McD had with him.

If I understand your point, you're alleging that Bowman is no less courageous when it comes to making trades. But that is at odds with his reputation in the NHL—both inside and outside the Hawk organization.

I know of one high profile former GM who confided as much to someone in the last year or two. I have heard it personally from a Hawk employee.

And the records speak for themselves.

Like Patrick Kane?
- paulr

But . . .

TT isn't Kane.

He isn't Kruger.

He's TT. He weighs about 170 pounds and he does look a bit contact averse at this point. But on that note, you give him time.