If you trade him now or you trade him in 3-4 years you'll get the same return. What I'm saying is trade Lupul, JVR, and/or Kadri for the Bergeron type prospects. A lot can change in 4 years. In 4 years LA became a bum team to year to year cup contenders. If at that point you still suck trade him, but at this points it's too early. LA held on to Cammalleri for a while before they traded him. It's also to note the draft picks the got for him never turned out.
- KesselRules

bergeron was drafted. And yes kessel will drop in value. Look at all the big scorers in history (i mean 1 dimensional players) they all start to peak/drop off around 27. What is kessel doing for us now? Unless you get lucky at the draft (like pit ) it takes a LONG time.

proof? knock edmonton all you want. They didn't have a chance at a stud (name the better players they could have taken). But they will now with mcdavid or eichel. Add that to their current mix and they are laughing. What do we have to show for it? a top 10 scorer who is 27? No building blocks besides rielly? seems simple to me.

the leafs completely changed systems mid-season so i'm not shocked that they took a nose dive rather than get better with a new coach. that's kind of a good sign to me, it suggests that shanny or whoever is making those decisions at this point is willing to risk writing off a season to help the team long-term. they were indeed better with their run and gun style but you'll never win anything important playing like that. i assume they are now using these remaining games to figure out who can or can't work in a system like this. my early assessment: apparently nobody can?

over the next 2-3 years are you worried if we move him we get worse? as in 27th overall to 30th? I'm talking patience defined with me being prepared for a 5-7 year rebuild. he's not helping that's 100% proven. but the future COULD
- clark_griswold

Imagine we lived in a world where we traded JVR for Seguin

over the next 2-3 years are you worried if we move him we get worse? as in 27th overall to 30th? I'm talking patience defined with me being prepared for a 5-7 year rebuild. he's not helping that's 100% proven. but the future COULD
- clark_griswold

No I'm worried that if we trade him and we get nothing back for when we are able to compete. Trading players like Kessel usually gets you lots of picks and there's a significant chance that they may never pan out. I'm saying start the rebuild with other players and in 3-4 years you stick suck trade him. His value won't change, but if you hit the lottery in those 3-4 years, Kessel would be needed.

Basically what I'm saying, the Leafs are more likely to hit the lottery in 3-4 years with the rebuild of other players than hitting the lottery from picks you get from Kessel.

the leafs completely changed systems mid-season so i'm not shocked that they took a nose dive rather than get better with a new coach. that's kind of a good sign to me, it suggests that shanny or whoever is making those decisions at this point is willing to risk writing off a season to help the team long-term. they were indeed better with their run and gun style but you'll never win anything important playing like that. i assume they are now using these remaining games to figure out who can or can't work in a system like this. my early assessment: apparently nobody can?
- daeth[/quote]

and you are exactly right no joke. The team is built WRONG. that's why we can't play under REAL hockey strategy. It worked temporarily under run and gun. TEMPORARILY. The team is built completely wrong, that is evident. Blow it up and build a right team (strong up the middle, on D and in net...wingers are fillers). Kessel staying here does NOTHING for us but provide highlight goals and bottom 10 finishes (not his fault)

bergeron was drafted. And yes kessel will drop in value. Look at all the big scorers in history (i mean 1 dimensional players) they all start to peak/drop off around 27. What is kessel doing for us now? Unless you get lucky at the draft (like pit ) it takes a LONG time.

proof? knock edmonton all you want. They didn't have a chance at a stud (name the better players they could have taken). But they will now with mcdavid or eichel. Add that to their current mix and they are laughing. What do we have to show for it? a top 10 scorer who is 27? No building blocks besides rielly? seems simple to me.
- clark_griswold

kessel takes like 3 hits all year and never misses games due to injury. he's probably more likely to maintain his prime into his 30s than most players. with that said if takes his off season training as seriously as it appears that may offset what I said above lol

bergeron was drafted. And yes kessel will drop in value. Look at all the big scorers in history (i mean 1 dimensional players) they all start to peak/drop off around 27. What is kessel doing for us now? Unless you get lucky at the draft (like pit ) it takes a LONG time.

proof? knock edmonton all you want. They didn't have a chance at a stud (name the better players they could have taken). But they will now with mcdavid or eichel. Add that to their current mix and they are laughing. What do we have to show for it? a top 10 scorer who is 27? No building blocks besides rielly? seems simple to me.
- clark_griswold

For kessel we gave up 2 first rounders and 2nd or w.e it was. This was when kessel was just a 60 pt guy. Now he is an 80 pt guy, consistent 30 goal scorer. Doesn't that mean he is worth more? Forget what those first rounders became. Simply that we gave up all that for him but now he is EVEN a better player, a better scorer and better point productions per season.

No I'm worried that if we trade him and we get nothing back for when we are able to compete. Trading players like Kessel usually gets you lots of picks and there's a significant chance that they may never pan out. I'm saying start the rebuild with other players and in 3-4 years you stick suck trade him. His value won't change, but if you hit the lottery in those 3-4 years, Kessel would be needed.

Basically what I'm saying, the Leafs are more likely to hit the lottery in 3-4 years with the rebuild of other players than hitting the lottery from picks you get from Kessel.
- KesselRules

his value absolutely will change. A 30 year old? his numbers have peaked. That is clear as day. Trade him while he can give peak production for a few years. No one will give you anything in 3 years. And without moving him, and say JVR, no one has any potential franchise altering value (return). No one on this roster. My opinion again, but it's pretty evident.

No I'm worried that if we trade him and we get nothing back for when we are able to compete. Trading players like Kessel usually gets you lots of picks and there's a significant chance that they may never pan out. I'm saying start the rebuild with other players and in 3-4 years you stick suck trade him. His value won't change, but if you hit the lottery in those 3-4 years, Kessel would be needed.

Basically what I'm saying, the Leafs are more likely to hit the lottery in 3-4 years with the rebuild of other players than hitting the lottery from picks you get from Kessel.
- KesselRules

im with ya

For kessel we gave up 2 first rounders and 2nd or w.e it was. This was when kessel was just a 60 pt guy. Now he is an 80 pt guy, consistent 30 goal scorer. Doesn't that mean he is worth more? Forget what those first rounders became. Simply that we gave up all that for him but now he is EVEN a better player, a better scorer and better point productions per season.
- DougGilmour_93

dude he was 21. he was a 36 g guy and 60 point player. His most is 37 and 80 since. He's peaked. can't base future trades on what you gave up for him. He didn't disappoint i say again, but he's not a franchise player. Deal him for a great future return (no rush).

WE PAID FOR KESSELS BEST YEARS

im with ya
- daeth

ok..so what are we clinging to now? seriously.

dude he was 21. he was a 36 g guy and 60 point player. His most is 37 and 80 since. He's peaked. can't base future trades on what you gave up for him. He didn't disappoint i say again, but he's not a franchise player. Deal him for a great future return (no rush).

WE PAID FOR KESSELS BEST YEARS
- clark_griswold

hahaha was he really, wow we had this guy for that long yikes! This is why leafs management are (frank)ing morons to like the fullest extent. You get this guy for this long, yet you haven't surrounded this guy with elite talent to win and have a winning environment or got this guy a 1st line center. Mind boggling ... but yeah i think if we targeted the isles you wont get all 3 but maybe 2 of those guys i mentioned. Tackle Strome and DalColle, call it a day. If we crack top 5 this year in the draft, draft Dylan Strome.

And another thing, I dont think Griffin Reinhart is that nice stay at home guy we are looking for who will be effective in the defensive zone

bergeron was drafted. And yes kessel will drop in value. Look at all the big scorers in history (i mean 1 dimensional players) they all start to peak/drop off around 27. What is kessel doing for us now? Unless you get lucky at the draft (like pit ) it takes a LONG time.

proof? knock edmonton all you want. They didn't have a chance at a stud (name the better players they could have taken). But they will now with mcdavid or eichel. Add that to their current mix and they are laughing. What do we have to show for it? a top 10 scorer who is 27? No building blocks besides rielly? seems simple to me.
- clark_griswold

Edmonton is in the same mess as the Leafs. If you look at the Oilers they have the SAME problems. All their forwards score just as much as the Leafs and they are the same type of player. If the Oilers get either Eichel or McDavid they won't make the playoffs until they trade a bunch of their 'same type' players.

his value absolutely will change. A 30 year old? his numbers have peaked. That is clear as day. Trade him while he can give peak production for a few years. No one will give you anything in 3 years. And without moving him, and say JVR, no one has any potential franchise altering value (return). No one on this roster. My opinion again, but it's pretty evident.
- clark_griswold

Didn't change for Gaborik. Even when he was injury prone. The Rangers got Derick Brassard for him and a good prospect. Players get traded for just as much as for what they've done as what they're doing.

ok..so what are we clinging to now? seriously.
- clark_griswold

the leafs are bad enough that they can still get top picks with kessel on the team. it may just turn out that the team could use a top winger with said top picks. that's why you keep him. if not then bye bye kessel in a few years or so.

realistically what kind of players do you think the leafs will get for kessel. im guessing depth players at best since that is what most 1st round picks and prospects amount to. thats why its not that attractive to me.

the leafs are bad enough that they can still get top picks with kessel on the team. it may just turn out that the team could use a top winger with said top picks. that's why you keep him. if not then bye bye kessel in a few years or so.

realistically what kind of players do you think the leafs will get for kessel. im guessing depth players at best since that is what most 1st round picks and prospects amount to. thats why its not that attractive to me.
- daeth

Ryan Strome (young center) and DalColle should be fine to obtain. Ryan Strome is having a good season so far.. im sure with the success the isles are having at the moment, kessel would be an excellent addition to play with tavares in the playoffs, having that offensive threat would be deadly

Edmonton is in the same mess as the Leafs. If you look at the Oilers they have the SAME problems. All their forwards score just as much as the Leafs and they are the same type of player. If the Oilers get either Eichel or McDavid they won't make the playoffs until they trade a bunch of their 'same type' players.



Didn't change for Gaborik. Even when he was injury prone. The Rangers got Derick Brassard for him and a good prospect. Players get traded for just as much as for what they've done as what they're doing.
- KesselRules

edmontons rebuild was underrated. Here's their core:

hall, eberle (trade), drasiatal (stud), yak (Trade) nugent, mcdavid OR eichel.
Nurse on D plus what you get for eberle and Yak

all are under 23. they don't have cap hell. They can trade anyone i mentioned for a lot. we have been nearly as bad for longer (they went to the final in 06).

we have rielly, and hopefully nylander..with cap hell...



as for gaborik...brassard is a nice piece but not a building block. The leafs could easily get brassardish player in 2 years ya. But is that what you want? or trade him now for more? what will phil do here next 3 years? go ahead and answer. And phil never, ever put up gaborik numbers FYI. Like it or not he didn't and he was just as incomplete

the leafs are bad enough that they can still get top picks with kessel on the team. it may just turn out that the team could use a top winger with said top picks. that's why you keep him. if not then bye bye kessel in a few years or so.

realistically what kind of players do you think the leafs will get for kessel. im guessing depth players at best since that is what most 1st round picks and prospects amount to. thats why its not that attractive to me.
- daeth

but they will bottom out without him. That's how you get the franchise guys. Picking 1st not 5th. They'll never get full value for him I'm not denying that..but what is it accomplishing keeping him? i don't like finishing 5th, i'll take 1st pick overall thank you

and adding top picks (hell even mcdavid) won't turn this team around even with phil for the next 5 years. It's going to be long and poope..but don't blame me..blame BB and nonis

Ryan Strome (young center) and DalColle should be fine to obtain. Ryan Strome is having a good season so far.. im sure with the success the isles are having at the moment, kessel would be an excellent addition to play with tavares in the playoffs, having that offensive threat would be deadly
- DougGilmour_93

the isles are a top 2 offensive team already arent they? i dont think a kessel type is their #1 priority.

hahaha was he really, wow we had this guy for that long yikes! This is why leafs management are (frank)ing morons to like the fullest extent. You get this guy for this long, yet you haven't surrounded this guy with elite talent to win and have a winning environment or got this guy a 1st line center. Mind boggling ... but yeah i think if we targeted the isles you wont get all 3 but maybe 2 of those guys i mentioned. Tackle Strome and DalColle, call it a day. If we crack top 5 this year in the draft, draft Dylan Strome.

And another thing, I dont think Griffin Reinhart is that nice stay at home guy we are looking for who will be effective in the defensive zone
- DougGilmour_93

only through the draft.Name a 1st line centre besides sequin who wasn't drafted. And I'm not a huge sequin guy regardless of points he is the phil kessel of centres. DOesn't matter what you throw at say an anahiem, they aint' dealing getzlaf.

bottom out and build through the draft

but they will bottom out without him. That's how you get the franchise guys. Picking 1st not 5th. They'll never get full value for him I'm not denying that..but what is it accomplishing keeping him? i don't like finishing 5th, i'll take 1st pick overall thank you

and adding top picks (hell even mcdavid) won't turn this team around even with phil for the next 5 years. It's going to be long and poope..but don't blame me..blame BB and nonis
- clark_griswold

would be just like the leafs to start tanking as soon as the nhl puts in anti tanking lottery rules

finish last by 20 points and pick 2nd in a draft with only one elite prospect

they'll totes do that, i can feel it

the isles are a top 2 offensive team already arent they? i dont think a kessel type is their #1 priority.
- daeth

they are young and overachieving but have a great future. why would they move all those key pieces for a good team for years for phil now? they aint winning with phil now..but they might with these 3 studs in a few years

edmontons rebuild was underrated. Here's their core:

hall, eberle (trade), drasiatal (stud), yak (Trade) nugent, mcdavid OR eichel.
Nurse on D plus what you get for eberle and Yak

all are under 23. they don't have cap hell. They can trade anyone i mentioned for a lot. we have been nearly as bad for longer (they went to the final in 06).

we have rielly, and hopefully nylander..with cap hell...



as for gaborik...brassard is a nice piece but not a building block. The leafs could easily get brassardish player in 2 years ya. But is that what you want? or trade him now for more? what will phil do here next 3 years? go ahead and answer. And phil never, ever put up gaborik numbers FYI. Like it or not he didn't and he was just as incomplete
- clark_griswold

You think you're going to get more than a Brassard type player now. The Rangers got a bunch of other prospects with him. That's what you're going to get with Kessel now or 3-4 years from now. If you trade him now you're going to get prospects/picks. What's the most likely skill level you end up with? Brassard. Now or the future.

Oh Kessel hasn't peaked. Iginla didn't peak until 34-35 same with Ray Whitney, Hossa, Sedin. They all peaked (or still haven't) around 34-35 and still produced at 60 points a year. Goal scorers tend to turn into more play makers as they age but they still produce.

but they will bottom out without him. That's how you get the franchise guys. Picking 1st not 5th. They'll never get full value for him I'm not denying that..but what is it accomplishing keeping him? i don't like finishing 5th, i'll take 1st pick overall thank you

and adding top picks (hell even mcdavid) won't turn this team around even with phil for the next 5 years. It's going to be long and poope..but don't blame me..blame BB and nonis
- clark_griswold

Fully had the opportunity to trade JVR for Seguin. And bruins would of accepted that rather than a declining eriksson they got which he was already on the decline in dallas while JVR is younger and was red HOT before that trade even happened.

Either way I think Nonis should be fired and Shanahan should take full control but trade these guys soon for MAX value. Teams are going to want guys like kessel, phaneuf, franson for their cup runs. Get full value, make it known to all teams that it is a bidding WAR and some team will unload a poopload of assets that will have VALUE or exceeding value for us to trade these guys away.

they are young and overachieving but have a great future. why would they move all those key pieces for a good team for years for phil now? they aint winning with phil now..but they might with these 3 studs in a few years
- clark_griswold

nashville still makes the most sense. we ain't getting jones though. we're just not.

either way..night gents, I'm clearly an advocate of the blow up rebuild and personally i think its very obvious. But that's just me..

cheers brosephs