Plus minus is huge for a defenseman. Moreso than a forward, IMO. Petro isn't even a top 50 d man IMO. I don't care how many goals or assists he has. His job is to defend, and he sucks at it.

I think more people should look at plus minus. It speaks volumes for accountability.
- WhatAboutBawb

It has its usefulness as a stat but shouldn't be a be-all and end-all. It should be part of the overall picture.

A bad team, most everyone on the roster is going to be minus. A bad goal given up by the goalie - everyone on the ice gets a minus. It's all about context.

If you have a team where by and large everyone's grouped together but one or two players stand out - there's something to that.

Maybe they're drawing tougher assignments, maybe the bulk of their points come on the PP. Maybe their game has turned to crap.

I don't mean to bash Pietrangelo in particular, but his game doesn't pass the eye test. He just isn't playing well right now. There's no hiding that. As well, Bouwmeester has been incredibly average.
- bcallaway

+/- is way too simplistic. A player can be playing his position perfectly, and get a minus. Or be completely out of position, and get a plus because of a great play by someone else on the ice.

It is fine to watch someone play and say they are struggling. But+/- shouldn't really factor into the discussion

+/- is way too simplistic. A player can be playing his position perfectly, and get a minus. Or be completely out of position, and get a plus because of a great play by someone else on the ice.

It is fine to watch someone play and say they are struggling. But+/- shouldn't really factor into the discussion
- carcus

It tells a story of the players performance teams as a whole. There's a reason Petro's is the worst on the team, and it isn't that he happens to just be on the ice when bad things happen.

It tells a story of the players performance teams as a whole. There's a reason Petro's is the worst on the team, and it isn't that he happens to just be on the ice when bad things happen.
- WhatAboutBawb

The reason he has the worst +/- is he is constantly out there against the other team's best guys. He is also constantly out there on the PK which hasn't been doing a stellar job as of late. The Backes line is also constantly out there against the other teams best line and hasn't been scoring nearly as much as they did last year. Look at all of them they are all at or below 0. +/- is definitely more of a team stat that individual. Corsi is a better stat and Petro is at 55% which is pretty good if you ask me given the quality of competition. In fact his iCorsi is second on the team behind Tarasenko. He is still an elite player +/- is a garbage stat.

http://stats.hockeyanalys...ue&season=2007-14&sit=5v5

Plus minus is huge for a defenseman. Moreso than a forward, IMO. Petro isn't even a top 50 d man IMO. I don't care how many goals or assists he has. His job is to defend, and he sucks at it.

I think more people should look at plus minus. It speaks volumes for accountability.
- WhatAboutBawb

few weeks ago Shattenkirk got an assist and a plus while he was sitting on the bench. The way the Blues do line changes....

But the most important thing is that there are six guys on the ice at once for a team and rarely can you point to one of them as being the problem. Like Shattenkirk essentially costing us the game against Montreal. But did he alone cost the game? No. He made some bad plays and he took out the goalie after his terrible pass so that would be an example of ample blame of a goal on one player.

Against the Kings a 42 year old was in net and he took himself out of position a couple of times and gave up some weak goals. Do you blame Petro for Marty having the puck bounce over his head?

The reason he has the worst +/- is he is constantly out there against the other team's best guys. He is also constantly out there on the PK which hasn't been doing a stellar job as of late. The Backes line is also constantly out there against the other teams best line and hasn't been scoring nearly as much as they did last year. Look at all of them they are all at or below 0. +/- is definitely more of a team stat that individual. Corsi is a better stat and Petro is at 55% which is pretty good if you ask me given the quality of competition. In fact his iCorsi is second on the team behind Tarasenko. He is still an elite player +/- is a garbage stat.

http://stats.hockeyanalys...ue&season=2007-14&sit=5v5
- cuethenoise

There is always something about this argument I do not like. I am referring to the first sentence. If you are a top dman then you should not be on the ice for too many goals against.

Saying that, I longer support plus and minus unless you show me a guy who has played on winning and losing teams and has a big negative all the time. That would be telling but it is rarely the case.

I like many advance stats. I do not think they tell the whole story but it is a good way to check what you think are seeing against something closer to empircal.

There is always something about this argument I do not like. I am referring to the first sentence. If you are a top dman then you should not be on the ice for too many goals against.

Saying that I longer support plus and minus unless you show me a guy who has played on winning and losing teams and has a big negative all the time. That would be telling but it is rarely the case.

I like many advance stats. I do not think they tell the whole story but it is a good way to check what you think are seeing against something closer to empircal.
- BluemanGuruu

Yeah I get your point, but Backes, Oshie, and Steen are out there a lot of the time with Petro and they have been pretty below average this year as far as scoring goes IMHO. That is what I am trying to say his +/- is so low. Hard to get rid of the minuses when there are not as many pluses

Have you all seen the article on P.K. Subban in the New Yorker? Good piece of writing.

http://www.newyorker.com/...ne/2014/12/15/ice-breaker
- eggsegan

I am not a fan of peering into other people's lives in that manner for my entertainment man. I always like Subban. The only thing I liked in the article was the talk of defensive play. All the rest was a puff piece. athe only thing I care about their personal lives is that they live well, don't beat their wives or kids and that they are not using drugs.

Yeah I get your point, but Backes, Oshie, and Steen are out there a lot of the time with Petro and they have been pretty below average this year as far as scoring goes IMHO. That is what I am trying to say his +/- is so low. Hard to get rid of the minuses when there are not as many pluses
- cuethenoise

I completely agree with you. No argument there the only issue I had was the first sentence.

I think they all do a great job. Hell Jackman has only had one puck to tape pass to the opposition in a while. He has not iced the puck as often.

If you want to prove plus/minus look at Cole who early in the season helped create a lot of offense against us and yet was like plus nine back then.

Besides Hitchcocks inability to flex with the changes of the game completely and over rely on certain players, I think the two main problems for this team have been backing in at their own blue line too often and not putting teams away when they have them on the ropes.

If the Blues do not take a late penalty in the first against LA I do not think LA scores. If LA does not score I do not think they would have come back. They would have actually started to panic as they had been down on themselves.

One other problem is the penalty kill. The penalty kill always starts with goaltending.

The reason he has the worst +/- is he is constantly out there against the other team's best guys. He is also constantly out there on the PK which hasn't been doing a stellar job as of late. The Backes line is also constantly out there against the other teams best line and hasn't been scoring nearly as much as they did last year. Look at all of them they are all at or below 0. +/- is definitely more of a team stat that individual. Corsi is a better stat and Petro is at 55% which is pretty good if you ask me given the quality of competition. In fact his iCorsi is second on the team behind Tarasenko. He is still an elite player +/- is a garbage stat.

http://stats.hockeyanalys...ue&season=2007-14&sit=5v5
- cuethenoise

This. Corsi isn't the end all be all but if all you're looking at is +-, you're going by a very narrow piece of information.

Slash Petro's minutes, put him on the third pair, yeah that's a great idea. Let Shattenkirk draw the tough matchups and D zone starts. Watch his scoring, along with the top lines, drop off. Put Jackman and Cole out against other teams top lines routinely and watch them get burned by speed and hemmed in the zone, happy just to clear the puck to center.

Sure, Petro has not been perfect but you don't sit as one of the elite teams in the league without a solid number 1 defenceman. The most obvious instance that I can remember him being personally responsible for a goal against was when he's ended up screening the goalie which I know has happened at least twice. Those times he got caught in no mans land but you watch other top D men, they play the same way. For every time they end up screening the goalie and the puck goes in, there are dozens of times when they block the shot and play it up ice, or the goalie is still able to stop it regardless.

The reason he has the worst +/- is he is constantly out there against the other team's best guys. He is also constantly out there on the PK which hasn't been doing a stellar job as of late. The Backes line is also constantly out there against the other teams best line and hasn't been scoring nearly as much as they did last year. Look at all of them they are all at or below 0. +/- is definitely more of a team stat that individual. Corsi is a better stat and Petro is at 55% which is pretty good if you ask me given the quality of competition. In fact his iCorsi is second on the team behind Tarasenko. He is still an elite player +/- is a garbage stat.

http://stats.hockeyanalys...ue&season=2007-14&sit=5v5
- cuethenoise

Oh, poop! Someone pulled a Corsi!

Oh, poop! Someone pulled a Corsi!
- eggsegan

Corsi makes you sound really intelligent don't you know?

Rutherford tweeted that Armstrong plans on carrying 3 goalies until Elliott is 100%... So who goes on waivers or is traded? Porter, MPS, Lindstrom?

Rutherford tweeted that Armstrong plans on carrying 3 goalies until Elliott is 100%... So who goes on waivers or is traded? Porter, MPS, Lindstrom?
- cuethenoise

Probably Chris Porter. He's cleared waivers like 30 times in the last three seasons. I don't see a problem risking losing him.

I can't imaging this would be for more than a game or two. Once Elliot is in there and he gives the sign he's 100% then its sayonara Marty.

Probably Chris Porter. He's cleared waivers like 30 times in the last three seasons. I don't see a problem risking losing him.

I can't imaging this would be for more than a game or two. Once Elliot is in there and he gives the sign he's 100% then its sayonara Marty.
- bcallaway

That's what I was thinking. I don't want to jinx us, but knowing our luck Marty will go to a team and take them to the finals haha.

That's what I was thinking. I don't want to jinx us, but knowing our luck Marty will go to a team and take them to the finals haha.
- cuethenoise

Elliot will remain on LTIR until he is ready to start. He won't start at less than
100%, so that's really a nothing statement from Army, right? Marty will exit and Elliot will come off IR. Of course, Jaskin can still go down for a game or two if you want to "test" Ells.

That's what I was thinking. I don't want to jinx us, but knowing our luck Marty will go to a team and take them to the finals haha.
- cuethenoise

I'm over Marty.

Who's doing the preview today?

Who's doing the preview today?
- Yeah Boyes

Me, me, me. I'll take a turn.

GDT: Blues @ Colorado Tonight at 7

Where: Pepsi Center

TV: NBCSN

Key Injuries for Blues — Jaden Schwartz, Carl Gunnarsson and Brian Elliott are all out for the foreseeable future.

Avalanche: Semyon Varlamov, Ben Street, Jamie McGinn, D Ryan Wilson and Jesse Winchester are out

Blues are third in the Central Division with 45 points and Colorado sits dead last in the division with a mere 32 points.

According to the PD, No line up changes for the Blues. Alex Pietrangelo and Jay Bouwmeester will remain on different defensive pairings. Much discussion has gone on about their play.

My thoughts:

*I would like to see more from Paul Stastny, especially in light of Jaden Schwartz's absence. Might we get to see Stastny remain with Berglund and Jaskin and form some actual chemistry?

*Anybody else tired of Erik Johnson scoring his only goals against the Blues?

*Jake Allen in goal again tonight, I'm happy about this. He's made big save early in games, we need to see a consistent 60 minutes from him. Great saves followed by soft goals kind of cancel each other out.

*A lot's been made of the Blues losing third period leads in the previous two games. San Jose stated their game plan specifically was to stay out of the penalty box and don't allow the Blues time on the Power Play. I would say that was a good strategy.

*Patrick Roy's face gets red when he gets mad. This can only mean he suffers from high blood pressure.

Me, me, me. I'll take a turn.

GDT: Blues @ Colorado Tonight at 7

Where: Pepsi Center

TV: NBCSN

Key Injuries for Blues — Jaden Schwartz, Carl Gunnarsson and Brian Elliott are all out for the foreseeable future.

Avalanche: Semyon Varlamov, Ben Street, Jamie McGinn, D Ryan Wilson and Jesse Winchester are out

Blues are third in the Central Division with 45 points and Colorado sits dead last in the division with a mere 32 points.

According to the PD, No line up changes for the Blues. Alex Pietrangelo and Jay Bouwmeester will remain on different defensive pairings. Much discussion has gone on about their play.

My thoughts:

*I would like to see more from Paul Stastny, especially in light of Jaden Schwartz's absence. Might we get to see Stastny remain with Berglund and Jaskin and form some actual chemistry?

*Anybody else tired of Erik Johnson scoring his only goals against the Blues?

*Jake Allen in goal again tonight, I'm happy about this. He's made big save early in games, we need to see a consistent 60 minutes from him. Great saves followed by soft goals kind of cancel each other out.

*A lot's been made of the Blues losing third period leads in the previous two games. San Jose stated their game plan specifically was to stay out of the penalty box and don't allow the Blues time on the Power Play. I would say that was a good strategy.

*Patrick Roy's face gets red when he gets mad. This can only mean he suffers from high blood pressure.
- bcallaway

*Patrick Roy's face gets red when he gets mad. This can only mean he suffers from high blood pressure.
- bcallaway

*Anybody else tired of Erik Johnson scoring his only goals against the Blues?

- bcallaway

Good job with the write up! I kind of like it when he scores, but only because he is on my fantasy team

Me, me, me. I'll take a turn.

GDT: Blues @ Colorado Tonight at 7

Where: Pepsi Center

TV: NBCSN

Key Injuries for Blues — Jaden Schwartz, Carl Gunnarsson and Brian Elliott are all out for the foreseeable future.

Avalanche: Semyon Varlamov, Ben Street, Jamie McGinn, D Ryan Wilson and Jesse Winchester are out

Blues are third in the Central Division with 45 points and Colorado sits dead last in the division with a mere 32 points.

According to the PD, No line up changes for the Blues. Alex Pietrangelo and Jay Bouwmeester will remain on different defensive pairings. Much discussion has gone on about their play.

My thoughts:

*I would like to see more from Paul Stastny, especially in light of Jaden Schwartz's absence. Might we get to see Stastny remain with Berglund and Jaskin and form some actual chemistry?

*Anybody else tired of Erik Johnson scoring his only goals against the Blues?

*Jake Allen in goal again tonight, I'm happy about this. He's made big save early in games, we need to see a consistent 60 minutes from him. Great saves followed by soft goals kind of cancel each other out.

*A lot's been made of the Blues losing third period leads in the previous two games. San Jose stated their game plan specifically was to stay out of the penalty box and don't allow the Blues time on the Power Play. I would say that was a good strategy.

*Patrick Roy's face gets red when he gets mad. This can only mean he suffers from high blood pressure.
- bcallaway

I root against EJ an absolutely unnecessary amount.

I root against EJ an absolutely unnecessary amount.
- Yeah Boyes

I kind of do as well, only because he's an Ex-Blue. I have no animosity toward him personally. He seems to be a decent fellow.


Anyone know how he got his front teeth knocked out?

I kind of do as well, only because he's an Ex-Blue. I have no animosity toward him personally. He seems to be a decent fellow.


Anyone know how he got his front teeth knocked out?
- bcallaway

Wolf "The Dentist" Stansson