Also just saw you comment on the doan blog where you said you would've traded neal for doan. Is this some kind of troll day?
- znagle

At the very least this statement supports a point I like to make about Pittsburgh: the core of the Penguins can win with a different goalie. Whether they stand a better chance with Fleury considering what the last half-decade has looked like is a different point of consideration.
- Johnny Wrath

Of course they can win with a different goalie, but it also means that when you have a mediocre but solid goalie like Niemi or Crawford (or, as you contend, Fleury), in net, you have to play the right way around that guy and help HIM out too. That's been the problem for most of the past 5 seasons.

I don't worry about Crawford or Niemi stealing a game in a hypothetical SCF matchup against the Pens in the same way that I don't expect for Fleury to steal a game himself. They're arguably on par with each other, the difference is how Chicago played in front of their mid-level goalie over the past 5 years while the Pens have left theirs out to dry, outside of last year (when he was not-so-surprisingly solid but the forwards couldn't put the puck in the net)

I think the new system has helped most of the d-men & goalies significantly. Forwards coming back to actually help in the d-zone, not leaving a continent worth of ice between themselves & the d-men making a breakout pass, and not leaving Flower hung out to dry while waiting above the circles for a breakout pass when the whole opposition team is between them & their own net, essentially leaving a 4 or 5-on-2 in the defensive zone half the time.
- ScienceJesus

Agreed. +1000.

Pittsburgh has 2 #1 Centers indeed.

Pittsburgh has three #2 defenders, three #3s, two #4s, and a #5.

Fleury is an NHL starting quality goaltender. Fleury is also part of the shaky, up-on-two-wheels spirit of Penguins playoff hockey. He is much more capable of blowing a game than he is stealing a game. I doubt anyone has ever thought that the Penguins would win at least one game in a playoff series because Fleury would steal a game. Fleury, in short, is not trustworthy.
- Johnny Wrath

Letang is their #1 guy and he would be a #1 defenseman on 20 other teams. How does that not qualify as a #1? He was also 3rd among dmen for points before his injury and logged a buttload of ice team in ALL situations. Please define a better #1 dman. I could only think of weber, suter, Keith, chara and doughty who have similar roles.

At the very least this statement supports a point I like to make about Pittsburgh: the core of the Penguins can win with a different goalie. Whether they stand a better chance with Fleury considering what the last half-decade has looked like is a different point of consideration.
- Johnny Wrath

My question would be what is the point of continuing the debate? GMJR (and thus the Penguins) have clearly made the conscious decision that they prefer to continue with MAF. Everyone is obviously entitled to their opinion, but at this point, the die is cast, for better or worse. I'd rather expend my energy on things that have yet to be decided, such as whether to get a Kielbasa-Pierogi Sandwich or go to Burgatory next time I'm at Consol.

Letang is their #1 guy and he would be a #1 defenseman on 20 other teams. How does that not qualify as a #1? He was also 3rd among dmen for points before his injury and logged a buttload of ice team in ALL situations. Please define a better #1 dman. I could only think of weber, suter, Keith, chara and doughty who have similar roles.
- drummer829

3 of the last 4 years, he's been in the top 10 of Norris voting. Only year he wasn't, he had a stroke......but he's not a #1

I think the new system has helped most of the d-men & goalies significantly. Forwards coming back to actually help in the d-zone, not leaving a continent worth of ice between themselves & the d-men making a breakout pass, and not leaving Flower hung out to dry while waiting above the circles for a breakout pass when the whole opposition team is between them & their own net, essentially leaving a 4 or 5-on-2 in the defensive zone half the time.
- ScienceJesus

I agree with this a lot too... Most of the issues in the last few seasons were defencemen either forced to do too much (Letang), resulting in turnovers, or defensemen who knew they couldn't carry the puck (Scuderi, Engelland) just chipping it out of the zone and having it often resulting in a turnover.

When the forwards are at least a zone away, those are pretty much your only options if that stretch pass was taken away.

Now the defensemen have high percentage options with the forwards much closer, and even guys like Scuderi can survive because even if he gives his partner the puck in a bad position, that guy (usually Despres) still has a couple of options with the puck. Last year when Scuderi gave his partner a hand grenade, that guy was on an island with no good options.

My question would be what is the point of continuing the debate? GMJR (and thus the Penguins) have clearly made the conscious decision that they prefer to continue with MAF. Everyone is obviously entitled to their opinion, but at this point, the die is cast, for better or worse.
- Emperor Filonius

I also find it interesting when people use selective timelines to argue against Fleury. Like him making it to the SCF 2 years in a row and winning one doesn't matter.

My question would be what is the point of continuing the debate? GMJR (and thus the Penguins) have clearly made the conscious decision that they prefer to continue with MAF. Everyone is obviously entitled to their opinion, but at this point, the die is cast, for better or worse.
- Emperor Filonius

There is no point. Pittsburgh has rewarded Fleury's total futility and inability to provide even consistent performances in the playoffs with a fat, lengthy contract. It's a Cam Ward kind of thing from JR. I hate it; it almost assures that Pittsburgh won't win again until the next time two generational centers are on the squad.

That being said, Fleury has certainly proven that he can collect that cash while the backup wins playoff games.

I agree with this a lot too... Most of the issues in the last few seasons were defencemen either forced to do too much (Letang), resulting in turnovers, or defensemen who knew they couldn't carry the puck (Scuderi, Engelland) just chipping it out of the zone and having it often resulting in a turnover.

When the forwards are at least a zone away, those are pretty much your only options if that stretch pass was taken away.

Now the defensemen have high percentage options with the forwards much closer, and even guys like Scuderi can survive because even if he gives his partner the puck in a bad position, that guy (usually Despres) still has a couple of options with the puck. Last year when Scuderi gave his partner a hand grenade, that guy was on an island with no good options.
- rival22

Pretty much. When the forwards help out and come back closer, they present more options for the guys on the blue line to make an effective breakout pass. They also take pressure off the back-3 and disrupt the opposing team's forecheck. They don't get behind the other teams' D as often anymore for clear breakaways or off-the-rush scoring, but they also have cut down on the workload their own guys have to do in the defensive zone.

There is no point. Pittsburgh has rewarded Fleury's total futility and inability to provide even consistent performances in the playoffs with a fat, lengthy contract. It's a Cam Ward kind of thing from JR. I hate it; it almost assures that Pittsburgh won't win again until the next time two generational centers are on the squad.

That being said, Fleury has certainly proven that he can collect that cash while the backup wins playoff games.
- Johnny Wrath

Sooo MAFs contract is bad because he makes average money for an average goaltender? Not to mention the fact that he's having a career year and leading the league. Or the fact that he was third fastest to 300 wins...

That's none of my business though

I also find it interesting when people use selective timelines to argue against Fleury. Like him making it to the SCF 2 years in a row and winning one doesn't matter.
- cap1681

It would be different if Fleury was solid and the Penguins lost to equal or better teams. I'm not saying that MAF rode anyone's coat tails to that Championship; I'm saying that keeping Fleury around after all of the implosions, fragility, and predictable gaffes that now define him was a mistake.

My question would be what is the point of continuing the debate? GMJR (and thus the Penguins) have clearly made the conscious decision that they prefer to continue with MAF. Everyone is obviously entitled to their opinion, but at this point, the die is cast, for better or worse.
- Emperor Filonius

Not only that, but there are so few elite goal tenders, are the pens supposed to trade their key players for one of quick, rask, rinne, etc...? There is no possible way the pens can upgrade the goaltending position. The argument has been whether or not someone could replace fleury for less money. Hopefully Jarry can become an elite player

It would be different if Fleury was solid and the Penguins lost to equal or better teams. I'm not saying that MAF rode anyone's coat tails to that Championship; I'm saying that keeping Fleury around after all of the implosions, fragility, and predictable gaffes that now define him was a mistake.
- Johnny Wrath

You act like the only reason the Penguins haven't won a Stanley Cup in the past 5 years is because of Fleury. It's been a complete team failure across the board.

Sooo MAFs contract is bad because he makes average money for an average goaltender? Not to mention the fact that he's having a career year and leading the league. Or the fact that he was third fastest to 300 wins...

That's none of my business though
- znagle

You're almost out of cliché textbook trolling facts. Next you'll be appraising the value of Fleury waving the Terrible Towel after a win at home.

Fleury's contract is bad because it's a contract with the Pittsburgh Penguins.

Not only that, but there are so few elite goal tenders, are the pens supposed to trade their key players for one of quick, rask, rinne, etc...? There is no possible way the pens can upgrade the goaltending position. The argument has been whether or not someone could replace fleury for less money. Hopefully Jarry can become an elite player
- drummer829

Plus, having an elite goaltender doesn't mean you're going to win a Stanley Cup. The only current elite goalie that has won a Cup is Quick.

You're almost out of cliché textbook trolling facts. Next you'll be appraising the value of Fleury waving the Terrible Towel after a win at home.

Fleury's contract is bad because it's a contract with the Pittsburgh Penguins.
- Johnny Wrath

I may have missed this so if so correct me where I am wrong, but who is you think that the penguins should have brought in net that is available, brodeur? dubnyk?

none of the goalies that were available were starting quality besides luongo, schneider? I think Id rather have the flower in net over either of them...

You act like the only reason the Penguins haven't won a Stanley Cup in the past 5 years is because of Fleury. It's been a complete team failure across the board.
- cap1681

I thought we were operating on the same level of respect. Clearly I have been proceeding under a misapprehension.

Fleury is the second point of failure over the past five seasons in my opinion. Kris Letang is four. It hasn't been a complete failure to a man; only certain key men.

You're almost out of cliché textbook trolling facts. Next you'll be appraising the value of Fleury waving the Terrible Towel after a win at home.

Fleury's contract is bad because it's a contract with the Pittsburgh Penguins.
- Johnny Wrath

Lol give it up. Who should we sign in the offseason then? Give me someone better for less money.

I may have missed this so if so correct me where I am wrong, but who is you think that the penguins should have brought in net that is available, brodeur? dubnyk?

none of the goalies that were available were starting quality besides luongo, schneider? I think Id rather have the flower in net over either of them...
- JLT168

I would rather have gone forward with either Schneider or Bernier. That was a key mistake.

I would rather have Miller and his contract right now than Fleury at his. Maybe, just maybe, Miller could win a home game against Philly.

There is no point. Pittsburgh has rewarded Fleury's total futility and inability to provide even consistent performances in the playoffs with a fat, lengthy contract. It's a Cam Ward kind of thing from JR. I hate it; it almost assures that Pittsburgh won't win again until the next time two generational centers are on the squad.

That being said, Fleury has certainly proven that he can collect that cash while the backup wins playoff games.
- Johnny Wrath

It must be miserable being you.

Lol give it up. Who should we sign in the offseason then? Give me someone better for less money.
- znagle

This offseason is not one in which there is a better UFA than Fleury.

I should also point out that I would have gone with Halak over Fleury should that ship not have sailed.

I would rather have gone forward with either Schneider or Bernier. That was a key mistake.

I would rather have Miller and his contract right now than Fleury at his. Maybe, just maybe, Miller could win a home game against Philly.
- Johnny Wrath

So you want to condemn Fleury but want to sign a goalie for more money who hasn't won a playoff series since 2007, or 2 goalies who have never done anything in the playoffs??

I would rather have gone forward with either Schneider or Bernier. That was a key mistake.

I would rather have Miller and his contract right now than Fleury at his. Maybe, just maybe, Miller could win a home game against Philly.
- Johnny Wrath

You are operating under the assumption that Bernier will be available (he's an RFA in the offseason unless I'm mistaken, and therefore would require giving up draft picks to get him assuming TOR doesn't roll out the cash cart to keep him). He also has ONE career playoff game on his resume.

And how would the Pens have "moved forward" with Scheider when he's under a long term contract with the Devils?

I'd like to "move forward" with Mila Kunis, but we all have to live in reality sometimes.

You are operating under the assumption that Bernier will be available (he's an RFA in the offseason unless I'm mistaken, and therefore would require giving up draft picks to get him assuming TOR doesn't roll out the cash cart to keep him). He also has ONE career playoff game on his resume.

And how would the Pens have "moved forward" with Scheider when he's under a long term contract with the Devils?

I'd like to "move forward" with Mila Kunis, but we all have to live in reality sometimes.
- Emperor Filonius

She's Ukrainian... probably enigmatic and would have bolted to the KHL anyway...