I think Suter was number 2 against Subban in votes. Watching Bouwmeester he isn't actually that great. His skating ability in uncanny though. I went to training camp and they did lines for like 15 minutes. Everyone was falling down tired. It didn't even look like Jay broke a sweat. He is also a smart player.

I think we can all agree it has been Gio so far this year though. And if you think it is because he is getting a lot of point you obviously don't watch the flames. He is getting point because he is dominating everyone defensively which is providing Calgary with great opportunities.

I thought Doughty should of won it last year. Keith had a great offensive season thought which put him ahead.
- tmurph

Suter is amazing. Even without the god, Weber, as his partner, he performs at a top 10 level every night while playing almost 30 minutes.

Bouwmeester may not be the best overall, but his stamina, work ethic, skills, and overall hockey IQ puts him in the top 20 discussion every time. He's in his prime and is really a perfect addition to any team needing help in their own end. Like you said, his skating is unreal and is hard to knock his work ethic/hockey sense.

Gio is breaking the mold and turning everyone earlier expectations on their heads. Man, is he good. He's for sure top five in voting this year for Norris and in consideration for Hart (top 10 voting) if he keeps it up.

Doughty will win twice at minimum before he retires. I think the days of seeing 4-5+ time winners like Lidstrom/Orr/Bourque are long over. Too many similar players for someone to win more than 3+ times. I could see Keith winning once more in his career, but I don't see a player winning half a dozen times outside of a generational talent (of which, there isn't any current Lidstroms/Orrs/Coffeys/Bourques)

I think Suter was number 2 against Subban in votes. Watching Bouwmeester he isn't actually that great. His skating ability in uncanny though. I went to training camp and they did lines for like 15 minutes. Everyone was falling down tired. It didn't even look like Jay broke a sweat. He is also a smart player.

I think we can all agree it has been Gio so far this year though. And if you think it is because he is getting a lot of point you obviously don't watch the flames. He is getting point because he is dominating everyone defensively which is providing Calgary with great opportunities.

I thought Doughty should of won it last year. Keith had a great offensive season thought which put him ahead.

Edit: I also hate Corsi. At least how people regard corsi. Corsi is a shooting statistic and NOT and possession statistic. End of story.
- tmurph

I like Corsi, and advanced stats to a degree. It's when they become more important than actual goals and wins is when I tune them out.

jake muzzin makes me as a pens fan cry

he is the kings revenge on the pens for robert lang

(frank) Corsi. Puck movers are great as long as they can stop the opposing puck movers.

I think the days of pure defenders are over with Stevens, Chelios, Schneider retiring. Two-way players (Doughty, Weber, Green) or pure offensive d-men (Letang, Karlsson, Subban) are the only ones who get the true credit. Rarely do you hear about Bouwmeester or Suter being the best d-men around.
- CreepyPasta

Chelios and Schneider averaged nearly 50 points per 82 games over their entire careers. Stevens was around 45. I would hardly call them "pure defenders." Plus don't forget that Paul Coffey has three Norris Trophies during that very same era. Historically elite defensemen have always performed offensively, regardless of how defensively sound they were.

Chelios and Schneider averaged nearly 50 points per 82 games over their entire careers. Stevens was around 45. I would hardly call them "pure defenders." Plus don't forget that Paul Coffey has three Norris Trophies during that very same era. Historically elite defensemen have always performed offensively, regardless of how defensively sound they were.
- Sandus

Being a 50 point defender between 1985-2004 isn't exactly being an offensive talent. Remember that records were set during these time frames for defensemen point totals and the overall points per defenseman over 60 minutes went up drastically as the role of d-men went from blue line exclusive to breakout expert. Players like Lidstrom, Foote, Coffey, Bourque, etc.. were averaging around 60-100 points during their primes as two-way defenders. Bit different than players like Chelios and Schneider who got the majority of their points as first/second pairing and not playing the offensive roles that Coffey and the likes did.

jake muzzin makes me as a pens fan cry

he is the kings revenge on the pens for robert lang
- ChrisMS

Lang was awesome.

I think Suter was number 2 against Subban in votes. Watching Bouwmeester he isn't actually that great. His skating ability in uncanny though. I went to training camp and they did lines for like 15 minutes. Everyone was falling down tired. It didn't even look like Jay broke a sweat. He is also a smart player.

I think we can all agree it has been Gio so far this year though. And if you think it is because he is getting a lot of point you obviously don't watch the flames. He is getting point because he is dominating everyone defensively which is providing Calgary with great opportunities.

I thought Doughty should of won it last year. Keith had a great offensive season thought which put him ahead.

Edit: I also hate Corsi. At least how people regard corsi. Corsi is a shooting statistic and NOT and possession statistic. End of story.
- tmurph

Giordano has been tremendous this year. Still early but it's his to lose IMO at this point.


also...you need possession to shoot the puck

I'm in agreeance that it is obviously not the be all end all of statistics though. It is simply a metric like any other that needs to be taken into consideration with several other supporting stats.

Lang was awesome.
- CreepyPasta

sigh. mario-jarg-fencepost line one
kovalov-lang-straka line 2. doesnt get better than that

NO

sigh. mario-jarg-fencepost line one
kovalov-lang-straka line 2. doesnt get better than that
- ChrisMS

Not really. Unless Brett Hull - Pavel Datsyuk - Henrik Zetterberg is your third line.

NO
- holeinone

Muzzin > Martin, Letang, Despres, Ehrhoff defensively.

Being a 50 point defender between 1985-2004 isn't exactly being an offensive talent. Remember that records were set during these time frames for defensemen point totals and the overall points per defenseman over 60 minutes went up drastically as the role of d-men went from blue line exclusive to breakout expert. Players like Lidstrom, Foote, Coffey, Bourque, etc.. were averaging around 60-100 points during their primes as two-way defenders. Bit different than players like Chelios and Schneider who got the majority of their points as first/second pairing and not playing the offensive roles that Coffey and the likes did.
- CreepyPasta

Chelios's point totals in his Norris-winning seasons: 72, 73, 73
Lidstrom's highest point total in any Norris-winning season: 71
Foote's highest single season point total: 31

Yes, I will agree with you that there were guys in that era like Bourque and Coffey who sported inflated point totals, and they were considered much as Karlsson and Subban are now, as major offensive assets from the blue line with enough defensive responsibility to adequately play the position. I don't we will ever see another Rod Langway-type Norris winner again, but some would argue that Langway shouldn't have ever won a Norris anyway.

I think in this day and age of reduced scoring and better goaltending and defensive coaching systems, any truly elite defenseman must be able to either A) score at a high level and be adequate in his own end or B) be superlative in his own end and score at a modest level. It's a balance, and the higher one of the sides is, the more okay it is for the other side to be low.

Chelios's point totals in his Norris-winning seasons: 72, 73, 73
Lidstrom's highest point total in any Norris-winning season: 71
Foote's highest single season point total: 31

Yes, I will agree with you that there were guys in that era like Bourque and Coffey who sported inflated point totals, and they were considered much as Karlsson and Subban are now, as major offensive assets from the blue line with enough defensive responsibility to adequately play the position. I don't we will ever see another Rod Langway-type Norris winner again, but some would argue that Langway shouldn't have ever won a Norris anyway.

I think in this day and age of reduced scoring and better goaltending and defensive coaching systems, any truly elite defenseman must be able to either A) score at a high level and be adequate in his own end or B) be superlative in his own end and score at a modest level. It's a balance, and the higher one of the sides is, the more okay it is for the other side to be low.
- Sandus

Points taken. I think we both agree that it seems the days of true defensive d-men or those that excelled at their own-zone as well as offensive skills are over for the most part.

So are the decades dominated by one player like Lidstrom. I think we see a different winner every two years, never three years for one player in a row anymore.

Muzzin is a solid player, but he won't win cuz
1. he plays in the west (eastern media bias)
2. he plays on the pacific coast (eastern media losers don't stay up to watch)
3. he doesn't have the name recognition because of 1. and 2.
4. hasn't had a breakout offensive season or dominant playoffs
5. hasn't had dominant national team exposure in any international tournies

Two things.

One...Jason, I want full credit every time you mention Betteridge's Law. Ok, J/K, but you're welcome anyway.

Two...This entire article is pretty strong evidence that there is an over-reliance on advanced statistics. Jake Muzzin is pretty good, but he's not a top 10 defender in the NHL. He's not even the best defenseman on his team. To say he's Norris worthy is pretty dumb. Corsi is a handy tool to help you gain some insight on a player (I prefer looking at it in a WOWY perspective, since who you play with has a strong indication of your possession #s). However, there are bloggers and analysts out there that solely judge players on their CF%, and throw out quotes like Andrew's without having even seen them play. I suppose it's a little better than looking directly at a player's points and +/- stats like they did before the dawn of advanced stats, but not much.

Muzzin is a solid player, but he won't win cuz
1. he plays in the west (eastern media bias)
2. he plays on the pacific coast (eastern media losers don't stay up to watch)
3. he doesn't have the name recognition because of 1. and 2.
4. hasn't had a breakout offensive season or dominant playoffs
5. hasn't had dominant national team exposure in any international tournies
- kaptaan

(frank) the East Coast Bias logic. The ECB is purely a myth. Statistics only show the bias because of their only being top teams in the East for the vast majority of the NHL. Only the Red Wings and Avalanche were in the West winning and showing start players up until the Kings. The East has had massively better talent and success over the years outside of a couple of teams. Not too mention top players wanting to play on Original Six teams.

Suter is amazing. Even without the god, Weber, as his partner, he performs at a top 10 level every night while playing almost 30 minutes.

Bouwmeester may not be the best overall, but his stamina, work ethic, skills, and overall hockey IQ puts him in the top 20 discussion every time. He's in his prime and is really a perfect addition to any team needing help in their own end. Like you said, his skating is unreal and is hard to knock his work ethic/hockey sense.

Gio is breaking the mold and turning everyone earlier expectations on their heads. Man, is he good. He's for sure top five in voting this year for Norris and in consideration for Hart (top 10 voting) if he keeps it up.

Doughty will win twice at minimum before he retires. I think the days of seeing 4-5+ time winners like Lidstrom/Orr/Bourque are long over. Too many similar players for someone to win more than 3+ times. I could see Keith winning once more in his career, but I don't see a player winning half a dozen times outside of a generational talent (of which, there isn't any current Lidstroms/Orrs/Coffeys/Bourques)
- CreepyPasta

Suter is better IMO than Weber, all things considered. The guy is just a machine. Bowmeester plays soft and his 'iron' man streak was just a testament to it for a guy his size.

you're probably right about norris being harder to win multiple times considering the number of solid dmen out there. i don't think keith wins again. doughty has a real shot this year. blowout offensive stats by a guy like Karlsson might torpedo anyone else's chances if he starts putting up numbers like before. that guy is a machine as well, was the best skater in the league until Cooke sliced him up...

Two things.

One...Jason, I want full credit every time you mention Betteridge's Law. Ok, J/K, but you're welcome anyway.

Two...This entire article is pretty strong evidence that there is an over-reliance on advanced statistics. Jake Muzzin is pretty good, but he's not a top 10 defender in the NHL. He's not even the best defenseman on his team. To say he's Norris worthy is pretty dumb. Corsi is a handy tool to help you gain some insight on a player (I prefer looking at it in a WOWY perspective, since who you play with has a strong indication of your possession #s). However, there are bloggers and analysts out there that solely judge players on their CF%, and throw out quotes like Andrew's without having even seen them play. I suppose it's a little better than looking directly at a player's points and +/- stats like they did before the dawn of advanced stats, but not much.
- tkecanuck341

This is what drives me nuts.

He's not even close to the best d-man on his team.

Drew Doughty imo is either #1 or #2 behind Suter.

Suter is better IMO than Weber, all things considered. The guy is just a machine. Bowmeester plays soft and his 'iron' man streak was just a testament to it for a guy his size.

you're probably right about norris being harder to win multiple times considering the number of solid dmen out there. i don't think keith wins again. doughty has a real shot this year. blowout offensive stats by a guy like Karlsson might torpedo anyone else's chances if he starts putting up numbers like before. that guy is a machine as well, was the best skater in the league until Cooke sliced him up...
- kaptaan

Suter and Weber can be interchanged. Suter is better as a defensive dman, Weber is a much better two-way defender.

Bouwmeester plays soft, but so did Lidstrom, not to compare the two, but you don't need to hit to be effective. JB has stick skills that rival almost any dman and his passing/skating is amazing.

And yeah, I'm ok that EK might not put up amazing numbers anymore. He does play for a divisional rival of my team.

Points taken. I think we both agree that it seems the days of true defensive d-men or those that excelled at their own-zone as well as offensive skills are over for the most part.

So are the decades dominated by one player like Lidstrom. I think we see a different winner every two years, never three years for one player in a row anymore.
- CreepyPasta

I think that says more about the talent level and state of the game than anything else. There really is no player who has truly separated himself from the pack. With that said, I think something like 50% of the guys who have ever won a Norris trophy have won it more than once. Plus keep in mind that we always hear the same guys in the conversation every year, among them previous winners like Chara and Karlsson.

I think the reason you don't have so many repeats consecutively is because the decisions are so close that the voters most likely feel like they have to "spread it around."That seems to be the case with the Selke lately too.

Suter and Weber can be interchanged. Suter is better as a defensive dman, Weber is a much better two-way defender.

Bouwmeester plays soft, but so did Lidstrom, not to compare the two, but you don't need to hit to be effective. JB has stick skills that rival almost any dman and his passing/skating is amazing.

And yeah, I'm ok that EK might not put up amazing numbers anymore. He does play for a divisional rival of my team.
- CreepyPasta

Suter also wins as a puck moving d-man, but Weber wins for hardest shot. They're both top tier imo.

Two things.

One...Jason, I want full credit every time you mention Betteridge's Law. Ok, J/K, but you're welcome anyway.

Two...This entire article is pretty strong evidence that there is an over-reliance on advanced statistics. Jake Muzzin is pretty good, but he's not a top 10 defender in the NHL. He's not even the best defenseman on his team. To say he's Norris worthy is pretty dumb. Corsi is a handy tool to help you gain some insight on a player (I prefer looking at it in a WOWY perspective, since who you play with has a strong indication of your possession #s). However, there are bloggers and analysts out there that solely judge players on their CF%, and throw out quotes like Andrew's without having even seen them play. I suppose it's a little better than looking directly at a player's points and +/- stats like they did before the dawn of advanced stats, but not much.
- tkecanuck341

I am with you 100% on the bolded stuff.

I like the trend of Muzzin's form USING these among other things. Analytics HAVE to be used in conjunction with something. There is no way to base opinions purely on them.

He has some major steps to take still, ala national exposure of some form or another, and a breakout offensive year (which he is currently on the way to having.) But I am right there with you in it being something that is kind of a hot topic at the moment and people are really over relying in it in judging the quality of the player.

*Muzzin gets burned on a clear cut break against Nashville and Craig Smith scores*


Nevermind, deleting blog.

Not really. Unless Brett Hull - Pavel Datsyuk - Henrik Zetterberg is your third line.
- CreepyPasta

double sigh