That's fine -- we can agree to disagree. MDZ's the sixth defenseman, and if things don't change around the Flyers, he probably won't be around too long

We'll see how Ghost performs and how the coaching staff/fanbase responds
- AllInForFlyers

Ghost will have his problems, I'm sure. He'll never be a shutdown defender. But as it stands right now, he already brings more offensive tools than MDZ, and is about as good defensively. It it weren't for working on his game for the future, I'd prefer to have Ghost in the lineup, but I understand that working on his game in the AHL is best for him long-term.

Can anyone tell me why Nick Shultz was playing top pairing minutes?

Why?

Also, Victor Hedman is a stud. Glad he finally has his game going.

If anything this injury doesnt give me doubts. He took a Streit slaphot to the (frank)ing foot. Anybodys foot would break or fracture or whatever the hell happened.
- GOA88

Aren't they supposed to wear skate fenders or something similar to prevent these injuries?

Gagne the Bruin
- aflyerpower8

Top 6 winger! He's going to point up to the Flyers press box like Drago did in Rocky IV.

The way the NHL is, a guy who is gritty and thought of as good defensively is going to get more rope than a guy who is smaller, considered poor defensively or viewed as less gritty.

I'm not saying an established veteran shouldn't get a bit more rope than a kid, but at some point you have to consider that the old war horse is starting to break down. For me it's not MDZ vs Grossmann, it's that most of the defensemen and forwards have struggled.

To hang Del Zotto alone isn't really the answer. To hang Grossmann alone isn't the answer. Neither have been very good. Grossmann may have lost a step due to injury, which isn't a mental mistake or anything. But that doesn't negate that he's simply not as capable as he was. Coaches and managers need to recognize that, just as they recognize MDZ has to improve his decision making and attention to his own end.

The case may end up being that neither can fix their woes. Sucks, but it might just be the truth. But when the only guys who have looked remotely steady are MacDonald & Schultz, arguing over MDZ & Grossmann is really pointless
- Jsaquella

As always, this stuff starts when somebody says that a player's underlying metrics aren't quite what we're seeing -- all Tomahawk did was say that MDZ's metrics aren't sustainable, and off we went

No, you generalized the statement I made by saying that it was Karlsson's fault that Ottawa was abysmal. I used the same paradigm you created.

Ottawa has accepted the fact that Karlsson's offense outweighs his defense. It's fair to question whether the Flyers and this fanbase would accept a defensemen under that premise
- AllInForFlyers

If you're using the fact that Karlsson's offense outweighs his defense as a reasoning that the Flyers should also with Del Zotto. Then I think that is flawed thinking. And if I got that wrong, please tell me. But Karlsson's offense is so far and above as a defenseman. That as long as he is adequate, his value to the team is obvious. And I think it's safe to say that Del Zotto isn't going to reach anywhere near that level of production and puck moving ability. So he isn't going to get as much leeway.

The whole point was started by asking should Schultz sit when Coburn comes back, or someone else. And the answer I gave was MDZ. The rest has spiraled from there.
- jmatchett383

It could be anyone. Nobody has played well.

As always, this stuff starts when somebody says that a player's underlying metrics aren't quite what we're seeing -- all Tomahawk did was say that MDZ's metrics aren't sustainable, and off we went
- AllInForFlyers

Again, it started on Page 1.

It could be anyone. Nobody has played well.
- Jsaquella

Agreed. But if we're picking the stinkiest fart...

Can anyone tell me why Nick Shultz was playing top pairing minutes?

Why?

Also, Victor Hedman is a stud. Glad he finally has his game going.
- KGBflyers10

Schultz played top pair minutes because the other two pairs, especially Schenn and Del Zotto, lost the faith of the coach.

Aren't they supposed to wear skate fenders or something similar to prevent these injuries?


- Feanor

I thought the puck hit him in the back of the skate... I could be remembering it wrong.

Agreed. But if we're picking the stinkiest fart...
- jmatchett383

To me it's immaterial. Both Grossmann and MDZ have been bad, so flip a coin. One has lost a step and hasn't been as good reading plays as a result and the other makes bad decisions in terms of when to attack and pinch.

As always, this stuff starts when somebody says that a player's underlying metrics aren't quite what we're seeing -- all Tomahawk did was say that MDZ's metrics aren't sustainable, and off we went
- AllInForFlyers

No that's not what he did. He spun the metrics to favor Del Zotto, and criticize Schenn. And he did state, that the SV% is not sustainable, which I agree with. That is skewed by the Montreal game.

I guess you can't protect everywhere. I just hope all our guys are using something like that, considering we already lost Coburn and Vinny to hard shots.

To me it's immaterial. Both Grossmann and MDZ have been bad, so flip a coin. One has lost a step and hasn't been as good reading plays as a result and the other makes bad decisions in terms of when to attack and pinch.
- Jsaquella

Agreed. But like I said, I was a defensive defenseman myself when I played, so I'm biased.

If you're using the fact that Karlsson's offense outweighs his defense as a reasoning that the Flyers should also with Del Zotto. Then I think that is flawed thinking. And if I got that wrong, please tell me. But Karlsson's offense is so far and above as a defenseman. That as long as he is adequate, his value to the team is obvious. And I think it's safe to say that Del Zotto isn't going to reach anywhere near that level of production and puck moving ability. So he isn't going to get as much leeway.
- MJL

No, what I'm saying is that Del Zotto's flaws are no better or worse than any other defenseman's on this roster, with Coburn out

Del Zotto has less rope because he's a lesser player than Karlsson -- that's fine. But Erik Gustafsson couldn't play here, either. Never got more than a few games. And that's fine too, if Gustafsson can't play.

Ghost will be the test case. Because most people are excited about what Ghost has done thus far as a Flyers draft pick.

But what will be the response if Ghost posts, say, an 7/32/-9?

I guess you can't protect everywhere. I just hope all our guys are using something like that, considering we already lost Coburn and Vinny to hard shots.
- Feanor

And Jeff Carter, don't forget him in Game 4 vs. NJD.

No, what I'm saying is that Del Zotto's flaws are no better or worse than any other defenseman's on this roster, with Coburn out

Del Zotto has less rope because he's a lesser player than Karlsson -- that's fine. But Erik Gustafsson couldn't play here, either. Never got more than a few games. And that's fine too, if Gustafsson can't play.

Ghost will be the test case. Because most people are excited about what Ghost has done thus far as a Flyers draft pick.

But what will be the response if Ghost posts, say, an 7/32/-9?
- AllInForFlyers

First off, if the Flyers knew Timonen was out in the offseason or he retired, I'm guessing Gus may have stayed, especially if the Flyers told him they wanted him in the op-4.

Secondly, given the choice, I'm taking Gustafsson over MDZ all day.

Third, if Ghost puts up 7/32/-9 in his first year, I'll take it.

First off, if the Flyers knew Timonen was out in the offseason or he retired, I'm guessing Gus may have stayed, especially if the Flyers told him they wanted him in the op-4.

Secondly, given the choice, I'm taking Gustafsson over MDZ all day.

Third, if Ghost puts up 7/32/-9 in his first year, I'll take it.
- jmatchett383

You'd take Gus, but the coaching staff clearly didn't -- that slot next to Schenn was a revolving door all season until MacDonald was acquired

Agreed. But like I said, I was a defensive defenseman myself when I played, so I'm biased.
- jmatchett383

I was too, but I'm not biased. I only care about who helps the team win...and right now the answer is neither of them

You'd take Gus, but the coaching staff clearly didn't -- that slot next to Schenn was a revolving door all season until MacDonald was acquired
- AllInForFlyers

The sad part is, Schenn's play actually improved when he was with Gustafsson. For some reason Berube felt the need to keep giving games to Meszaros

First off, if the Flyers knew Timonen was out in the offseason or he retired, I'm guessing Gus may have stayed, especially if the Flyers told him they wanted him in the op-4.

Secondly, given the choice, I'm taking Gustafsson over MDZ all day.

Third, if Ghost puts up 7/32/-9 in his first year, I'll take it.
- jmatchett383

What if that's Ghost fourth year?

That is skewed by the Montreal game.
- MJL

Actually, it was mostly the Devils game, but w/e.

No, what I'm saying is that Del Zotto's flaws are no better or worse than any other defenseman's on this roster, with Coburn out

Del Zotto has less rope because he's a lesser player than Karlsson -- that's fine. But Erik Gustafsson couldn't play here, either. Never got more than a few games. And that's fine too, if Gustafsson can't play.

Ghost will be the test case. Because most people are excited about what Ghost has done thus far as a Flyers draft pick.

But what will be the response if Ghost posts, say, an 7/32/-9?
- AllInForFlyers

I think Berube prefers the harder-hitting, defensive dmen like Grossmann and Schenn over the faster but softer more offensively-minded dmen like Gus and MDZ. Just like he seemed to favor a player like Rinaldo and Rosehill last season over guys like McGinn and Akeson.

The sad part is, Schenn's play actually improved when he was with Gustafsson. For some reason Berube felt the need to keep giving games to Meszaros
- Jsaquella

That's one of the baffling parts. They didn't believe in Gus, they might not like Del Zotto. Fine. Maybe it's those two players who didn't get the job done.

But the Flyers need another player LIKE them. So if MacDonald isn't going to play with Schenn, then at some point, everybody's going to have to accept that a No. 6 defenseman is going to have some flaws.