I wouldn't say huge set back. I think Couturier's developed well. He needs to bring more offense, but at worst he's going to be a fantasic third line shut down center.

Schenn, there's times he just looks lost out there. Maybe it's the position juggling. Maybe its the line juggling. Maybe he's just not that good. I worry about the level of hockey sense. Or maybe it's just confidence. He doesn't good unless he's being active and skating hard, and he's not doing that right now.
- Jsaquella

Hes a talented player and thats what got him through juniors, i just dont think he has hockey smarts...

For the most point I agree, however, without Coburn, their D just isn't good enough to compete for a playoff spot. They would need a ton of lottery luck to land McDavid. If they do miss the playoffs, they are more likely looking at picking somewhere between 8-12
- BiggE

I can't wait to see how" patient" Hextall is? This could turn into a real S-Show if this D doesn't show some improvement.

Coburn was missed last night, IMO he would have made a difference his skating would have helped relieve some pressure in their own end... He could have actually gotten to some pucks instead of Schennn, Schultz, or Grossman!!!!

Yes that particular play infuriated me

That is what I am talking about it, he is not more than a 6 Dman
- 3flyerkids

Pissed me off, too. It's not like Grossmann doesn't know he's slow, so he's gotta take advantage when he can.

Even with Coburn, I don't think they're that great. He's a Robin, not a Batman
- Jsaquella

No doubt, but they go from mediocre to average with him, IMO

When Coburn gets back I honestly wouldn't mind seeing Amac back with LSchenn.
Amac really helped Luke's play last year.

Coburn might be a steadying influence on MDZ.
I wouldn't want MDZ getting the same tough assignments that Coburn sees though.

Hes a talented player and thats what got him through juniors, i just dont think he has hockey smarts...
- PhillaBully

I was a believer in b schenn but more and more he and his brother just seem out of shape and lacking hockey smarts. I'd love to see both dealt for e Kane.

I can't wait to see how" patient" Hextall is? This could turn into a real S-Show if this D doesn't show some improvement.

Coburn was missed last night, IMO he would have made a difference his skating would have helped relieve some pressure in their own end... He could have actually gotten to some pucks instead of Schennn, Schultz, or Grossman!!!!
- 3flyerkids

Yeah, people rip Coburn all the time around here, but he is their only dman with above average speed who plays sound defense. AMac comes close, but he's not as strong a skater as Coburn nor does he have a 6'5 220 frame to ward off forecheckers.

Have the Flyers fired Berube and replaced him with Cote yet?
- Dkos

You almost know Disco Dan is going to be the next contestant in this gong show.

Bill Meltzer: Meltzer's Musings: Flyers Collapse in Shootout Loss
- bmeltzer

so berube's response is "oh it's like last year" ?

When Coburn gets back I honestly wouldn't mind seeing Amac back with LSchenn.
Amac really helped Luke's play last year.

Coburn might be a steadying influence on MDZ.
I wouldn't want MDZ getting the same tough assignments that Coburn sees though.
- Marc D

MDZ is a train wreck, I'd get rid of him when Coburn comes back and go:
Coburn-Schenn
Grossmann-Streit
AMac-Schultz

Bring up Manning to be the 7th man and let the kids keep developing in Allentown.

Yes, Shelley is the new assistant and Rosehill is being groomed for the future as we speak.
- coffee junkie

Can't wait for this. Man, it's been three losses already. What are they waiting for?

It's tough to buy your way out of mistakes in the cap era.....Holmgrens mistakes were compounded....he for the most part did a good job, but I agree he never seemed to stick to one plan.
- landros 2

It's definitely hard.

It just varied from year to year. They spent so many assets to get Pronger and then to try and fill the hole left by his injury.

Lupul, Sbisa, 2 1st rounders, 2 2nd rounders, 3rd and 4th rounders. That's what they paid for Pronger, Grossmann and Kubina.

You almost know Disco Dan is going to be the next contestant in this gong show.
- hereticpride

I wouldn't be surprised if it was Lappy.

No doubt, but they go from mediocre to average with him, IMO
- BiggE

I still think that they're mediocre with him. They are flat brutal without him

and lecavalier hurt on that shot, of course

No doubt, but they go from mediocre to average with him, IMO
- BiggE

So, no change, then?



"Are you saying I'm redundant, I repeat myself and I say things over and over?"

Since the advent of the Salary cap, the Flyers have only had 2 years where they didn't have an aging, big, bruising, highly paid, defenseman on a long term contract on LTIR. They are the only team to do so and no other team comes even close.

Holmgren got smoked with Pronger for several reasons.

1 .He traded the equivalent of 4 1st round draft picks + a 2nd for a 33 year old Pronger with 1 year left on his contract with no commitment from Pronger to stay longer.

Which forced him to do #2 :
2. Pronger who had no commitment to stay with the Flyers past the first year and had Holmgren backed into a corner because of the assets given to acquire him. Because of this he was able to extract one of the famed Golden Parachute contracts of that time that just about every team has come to regret and buyout. As a consequence Pronger would be on the books until he was 42.

3. Holmgren's failure to realize Pronger's contract was an over 35 contract and as such couldn't be written off when Pronger retired presumably after the big money years at the age of 40.

4. Pronger's eventual concussion retirement. While not his fault the signs were already there that Pronger was experiencing more injuries and that physically he was beginning to break down little by little. Very common among aging physical defensemen.
- Flyers_01

1-2. If you want to trade for a franchise defenseman -- who are rarely available at any price -- it's going to take a monster return. The Flyers' first order of business was to be sure that Pronger would sign an extension for the long-term (which he apparently didn't want to do in Anaheim, making him available in the first place). Anaheim wouldn't let the Flyers talk to Pronger ahead of time, which raised the cost even a little higher to get the deal done once the trade was made.

3. Holmgren did not handle matters specifically related to the salary cap/CBA. That was (and remains) the specialized domain of assistant general manager Barry Hanrahan. Holmgren made the final hockey decisions on whether a move would help the team enough to justify the trade cost and/or contractual obligation.

4. Pronger was coming off a season in which he had played all 82 games and had played 72 to 80 games in three of the four previous seasons. He also played all 82 games his first year with the Flyers. It wasn't until his second year that he started having injury issues. The back problems were the scary thing but the other injuries that year were of the type that anyone could suffer (e.g., foot injury from blocking a shot). However, I do agree that it stood to reason that eventually his body would start breaking down before the contract ran its course. As for the eye injury and ocular concussion that resulted in reduced vision and the ongoing post-concussion issues, that could happen to any player at any age.

MacDonald has played well for the most part in the three games. He and Schultz played pretty much like everyone else in that third period last night. Actually, I was pleasantly surprised by Schultz's play against the Devils and the first two periods last night.

Streit has made a host of low percentage plays in each of the last two games. The Flyers desperately need him to play the way he did down the stretch and the playoffs of last season. In Kimmo Timonen's absence, they needed

Grossmann is what he is. However -- and this says more about the Flyers' blueline group collectively than him -- he hasn't remotely been the Flyers' weakest D-man over the balance of the first three games. In light of how the Flyers have been hemorrhaging goals against, at least wait til 8 has been out for a goal against (he's been purely lucky about 3-4 times in the last two games) to be the one you single out .

Luke Schenn wasn't as hideous in the minus-five game against the Devils as the numbers suggest -- that would be tough to do -- but his pairing with Del Zotto is an absolute train wreck. Del Zotto has been the worse of the two, actually. Del Zotto's ice time last night tells you what Berube thought.
- bmeltzer

The whole Dcore as a group has not performed well the last 2 games. I would rather see Ghost within the next 15 games than MDZ if this is all he can bring every night.I agree he has been a train wreck. Schenn had some bad luck against the Devils and didn't do much last night. However I would rather have Schenn than Grossman any day.

So, no change, then?



"Are you saying I'm redundant, I repeat myself and I say things over and over?"


- tangent_man

ok, from slightly below average to a smidge above then.

MDZ is a train wreck, I'd get rid of him when Coburn comes back and go:
Coburn-Schenn
Grossmann-Streit
AMac-Schultz

Bring up Manning to be the 7th man and let the kids keep developing in Allentown.
- BiggE

It would be cool to see Coburn back on the left side.

I'm not ready to completely give up on MDZ.
He is a damn good skater and has a good shot. They really need a D man with his skills until Ghost is ready.
I agree he has been their worst guy so far, but I'd give him a shot with Coburn and see. I understand your point, he has been much more of a liability then an asset so far.

I wouldn't be surprised if it was Lappy.
- Dkos

I almost expect Snider to be so fed up with this that he hires Torts.

Please god no.

Who was talking post game smack?
Was it the coach?
Missed this.
- Marc D

berube on b schenn

When Coburn gets back I honestly wouldn't mind seeing Amac back with LSchenn.
Amac really helped Luke's play last year.

Coburn might be a steadying influence on MDZ.
I wouldn't want MDZ getting the same tough assignments that Coburn sees though.
- Marc D

i bet he sits del zotto

berube on b schenn
- -davies-

Missed this, what did he say?

It be cool to see Coburn back on the left side.

I'm not ready to completely give up on MDZ.
He is a damn good skater and has a good shot. They really need a D man with his skills until Ghost is ready.
I agree he has been their worst guy so far, but I'd give him a shot with Coburn and see. I understand your point, he has been much more of a liability then an asset so far.
- Marc D

MDZ has the physical tools, it's whats between the ears that worries me. He seems to hesitate before making a play which is bad enough, but then he goes on to make a poor decision anyway. He's been struggling for a couple years, I'm starting to think, and I can' t say why his game has sunk so low, that he just is what he is.