The entire design of the Center Lock forecheck is for either the forward who is at the center position (3rd man high) or the weak side defenseman to prevent against reverses and breakouts to that side of the ice. When a defenseman pinches and makes a good read, as Del Zotto did on that play. By design, that forward is supposed to back him up, which Voracek did, to prevent odd man rushes. Voracek hustled back to prevent the 2 on 1, and Schenn didn't get his stick on the shot, and Mason should've had the save.
There is no hypothetical involved. Del Zotto was playing the system there.
- MJL

It was a 50/50 puck. He pinched, abandoning his post. He didn't get the puck or get it deep. The other team scored. Case closed.

Certainly, you want to see Coburn elevate his game on his own, not always need to have a partner who can elevate it. I totally agree with that.

But my feeling is this, especially after watching last night: If Coburn's not playing well, the Flyers are looking at giving up three, maybe four goals in any given game. If he plays solidly or even well, then it's one or two, maybe three. It won't always be pretty, but we're as likely to get Boston on opening night as anything else, especially if Mason is playing well.

But if Coburn were out completely?

I don't know that Mason's GAA would start with a "2" at any point this season, and might be closer to 3.5-3.7 than I, for one, would care to admit.
- AllInForFlyers

S
Definitely. Coburn, when he's playing well, can reach a higher level than any of the other defensemen. He's done it with different partners, but he's got to be with a guy who knows his role and can be counted on to perform it. That's why Grossmann has had success with Coburn in the past, each knew the others abilities and limitations.

It's harder to read the others on the roster, to some extent, at least in terms of playing in their own end

I haven't said that calling MacDonald a solid number three is "mind boggling". That was your exact statement to my post saying he's a 4/5.

I'd say both opinions are reasonable, and I did not attack your opinion with an insult, suggesting it was a ridiculous opinion to have. Also, as usual, you mis characterized what I said, by focusing on one part of the post. Saying a player is a 4/5 is in fact saying he's capable of being on a second pair-which is not calling him a third pair player. It's an acknowledgement that he can play on a second pair.

You chose to ignore that part of my post, which is disingenuous on your part. You routinely do both, which is why I routinely ignore you. I don't mind a debate, but to be quite honest, you don't debate. You bludgeon people with your opinion without really giving their thoughts a full and fair consideration. It's tiresome and pointless. I find it "mind boggling" that I wasted so much time on it in the past, and I refuse to do so in the future.
- Jsaquella

Calling him a 4/5 is calling him a 3rd pair defenseman. Nothing was ignored. And I'll reiterate that calling him a 4/5 or a 3rd pair defenseman in any way, is mind boggling, in my opinion. Because he is clearly a better player then that.
He can play on a 2nd pair, but not on a good team.

Just because Pronger suffered a career ending injury, didn't mean the Flyers had to go out and sell JVR for 10 cents on the dollar out of desperation.
- PLindbergh31

Sadly, its only one on a long list of failures by Homer ...
Bryz/Bob, JvR, Eminger, Carcillo, Versteeg, Modry, trading away a million 2nd rounders, etc etc etc

The sad part is that we havent had a good GM in forever. Clarkie was horrendous too. The good news is that Hextall is a HUGE improvement.. the team has a bright future.

Calling him a 4/5 is calling him a 3rd pair defenseman. Nothing was ignored. And I'll reiterate that calling him a 4/5 or a 3rd pair defenseman in any way, is mind boggling, in my opinion. Because he is clearly a better player then that.
He can play on a 2nd pair, but not on a good team.
- MJL

Thanks for making my decision an easy one.

The entire design of the Center Lock forecheck is for either the forward who is at the center position (3rd man high) or the weak side defenseman to prevent against reverses and breakouts to that side of the ice. When a defenseman pinches and makes a good read, as Del Zotto did on that play. By design, that forward is supposed to back him up, which Voracek did, to prevent odd man rushes. Voracek hustled back to prevent the 2 on 1, and Schenn didn't get his stick on the shot, and Mason should've had the save.
There is no hypothetical involved. Del Zotto was playing the system there.
- MJL

To me Del Zotto looked really good. Seemd confident with the puck and skaed it out of trouble a couple times. Good pass and a good shot.

It was a 50/50 puck. He pinched, abandoning his post. He didn't get the puck or get it deep. The other team scored. Case closed.
- jmatchett383

If it was a 50/50 puck then Del Zotto made the right decision. Because that's when you want the defenseman to pinch. When the defensman has little chance to get the puck, such as when Streit pinched that led to a goal, that's when you don't want him to pinch, and instead you want the forward in the center lock position, to cut off the breakout. That's the center lock forecheck system.

If it was a 50/50 puck then Del Zotto made the right decision. Because that's when you want the defenseman to pinch. When the defensman has little chance to get the puck, such as when Streit pinched that led to a goal, that's when you don't want him to pinch, and instead you want the forward in the center lock position, to cut off the breakout. That's the center lock forecheck system.
- MJL

You my assistance coach? lol

Del Zotto shouldn't have been a -4 last night, in my opinion. Schenn shouldn't have been a -5, either, but what are you going to do?
- AllInForFlyers

I take solace in knowing that luck is going to regress like a mean mother(frank)er in MDZ's favor now... that is unless Mason keeps inexplicably letting in 4 out of every 5 shots on the net when MDZ is out there (at ES).

To me Del Zotto looked really good. Seemd confident with the puck and skaed it out of trouble a couple times. Good pass and a good shot.
- jmdodgeser4

And was caught out of position and drifting back into the camera shot with the puck in the Flyers' net on at least 2 goals last night.

I'm sorry, but I'm old school. As a defenseman, your first priority should be defense, and you should only join the offense if 1) you will be able to get back into position to defend, or 2) you have a clear-cut advantage to create a solid scoring chance. Just my view on how I like my defensemen.

If it was a 50/50 puck then Del Zotto made the right decision. Because that's when you want the defenseman to pinch. When the defensman has little chance to get the puck, such as when Streit pinched that led to a goal, that's when you don't want him to pinch, and instead you want the forward in the center lock position, to cut off the breakout. That's the center lock forecheck system.
- MJL

No, I want a defenseman to pinch when he has the advantage. Otherwise, you're a defenseman, PLAY (frank)ING DEFENSE.

Sadly, its only one on a long list of failures by Homer ...
Bryz/Bob, JvR, Eminger, Carcillo, Versteeg, Modry, trading away a million 2nd rounders, etc etc etc.
- MrBigglesworth

And a long list of good moves. Voracek & Couturier, Mason, Simmonds & BSchenn, Streit, Raffl, and both of the contracts for Giroux. Laughton, Stolarz, Ghost, Morin and Hagg all look like solid draft picks.

And a long list of good moves. Voracek & Couturier, Mason, Simmonds & BSchenn, Streit, Raffl, and both of the contracts for Giroux. Laughton, Stolarz, Ghost, Morin and Hagg all look like solid draft picks.
- Feanor

What happened in 08 when we gave up drafting John Carlson to acquire Steve Eminger? or in 12.. Laughton drafted when Maatta was BPA ?

What happened in 08 when we gave up drafting John Carlson to acquire Steve Eminger? or in 12.. Laughton drafted when Maatta was BPA ?
- MrBigglesworth

Laughton would prolly be playing on the flyers right now if we didnt go and sign the new shiny object known as Vinny L. Now we have a roster with just too many centers .

S
Definitely. Coburn, when he's playing well, can reach a higher level than any of the other defensemen. He's done it with different partners, but he's got to be with a guy who knows his role and can be counted on to perform it. That's why Grossmann has had success with Coburn in the past, each knew the others abilities and limitations.

It's harder to read the others on the roster, to some extent, at least in terms of playing in their own end
- Jsaquella

I think Grossmann and Streit are fine against second and third lines -- not amazing, but good enough. They are a solid second unit, to me.

Del Zotto and Schenn...last night wasn't entirely them. It just wasn't. Del Zotto did do his job properly on at least two occasions that wound up in the net and had nothing to do with him not doing his job. But no, I don't think you can risk playing that pairing against anything other than third or fourth lines at even strength.

That's why Coburn's gotta get back. You can't have Grossmann-Streit playing those brutal minutes that Coburn gets, and Del Zotto-Schenn playing the minutes that Grossmann-Streit get. Good Lord. We all saw it.

They can make the playoffs if they can just get Coburn back so they can even get the defensemen slotted properly. It won't be pretty, but I do believe that.

the islanders sucked with streit and amac and now we also suck with them, we got and overpaid for the islanders garbage

simmonds should be captain, the only guy that brings it every night and plays with a purpose.

the team is way to small, cannot get a forecheck going to save there lives.

umberger is a ghost, man he sucks...i think hartsey had more in the tank then this stiff.

And a long list of good moves. Voracek & Couturier, Mason, Simmonds & BSchenn, Streit, Raffl, and both of the contracts for Giroux. Laughton, Stolarz, Ghost, Morin and Hagg all look like solid draft picks.
- Feanor

Coots is great but we could have had Dougie Hamilton.

We gave up Bob and have Mason.. which would you rather have?

What happened in 08 when we gave up drafting John Carlson to acquire Steve Eminger? or in 12.. Laughton drafted when Maatta was BPA ?
- MrBigglesworth

The Eminger trade was bad. That was his worst move.

As for Laughton, what makes you say Matta was BPA?

What happened in 08 when we gave up drafting John Carlson to acquire Steve Eminger? or in 12.. Laughton drafted when Maatta was BPA ?
- MrBigglesworth

You already listed Eminger, you can't double use a mistake. That's cheating.

the islanders sucked with streit and amac and now we also suck with them, we got and overpaid for the islanders garbage

simmonds should be captain, the only guy that brings it every night and plays with a purpose.

the team is way to small, cannot get a forecheck going to save there lives.

umberger is a ghost, man he sucks...i think hartsey had more in the tank then this stiff.
- mydoglicks

so you're saying trade giroux?

The Eminger trade was bad. That was his worst move.

As for Laughton, what makes you say Matta was BPA?
- jmatchett383

which one is in the NHL

Coots is great but we could have had Dougie Hamilton.

We gave up Bob and have Mason.. which would you rather have?
- MrBigglesworth

HOLMGREN NEVER DID ANYTJHING GOOD.

HOLMGREN NEVER DID ANYTJHING GOOD.
- jmatchett383

Schenn for JVR

Stolarz
- Feanor

Really too soon to call that one... especially with the way safer picks like Tierney, Devin Shore, Thrower and Brock McGinn have blossomed post-draft.

Coots is great but we could have had Dougie Hamilton.

We gave up Bob and have Mason.. which would you rather have?
- MrBigglesworth

rather have mason. and rather have coots. Now if we didnt have the d in the system my answer might be different but hamilton isnt saving us now