Schultz came in as a late addition to the lineup, as the 7th D man, and played a solid game. But that doesn't point to having depth?

You're response was even Ryan Parent has an occasional good game. Which is a lame point. Bottom line is that Schultz did the job. And he is one player that last night, isn't to blame for anything.

My point is, if that is true that even Ryan Parent had an occasional good game. Then isn't it true also for good defenseman like Streit and Grossmann, who had subpar games last night?

Goals were scored against the Flyers last night. So let's blindly look at the defenseman, because they're the only players responsible for that. Let's go on and on about the Flyers bottom third defense, as if it that is the main issue in the game last night. It wasn't. They certainly were a part of it.

But the Flyers lost last night because of some bad puck luck. Team defensive breakdowns, including multiple errors in coverage by the forwards. Some mis-plays and bad decisions by some defenseman. And a bad goal on the Zubrus winning goal that should've been stopped.

Bottom line is that the Flyers are lacking a top defense pairing. If they were 2-0 right now, would that be any different?
So my view is to focus on what the main issues now are with the players on the team currently, and what went wrong in the first two games.
- MJL

My point is that the Flyers defense is not a strong point, and losing a guy long term and having Schultz in there LONG TERM is a serious problem. Doesnt mean they wont have ups and downs, just that it is going to be a tough thing to fight through.

I know you love to pick things apart.. but there is no way you can sit there say that we have a good defense and good depth. It is an absolute weakness.

Okay okay, the team defense can pick it up and help out and carry their load and that can make up for some of the short comings .. But the fact that we need to change our mindset offensively to help the defense is glaring itself.

it was beyond unacceptable to have any guy, but especially that guy, all alone like that. raffl set this whole play in motion with a bad, very low percentage play from the left half wall into the middle of the ice where it was easily picked off and set back the other way on a rush. as soon as i saw that pass i knew the devils would find a way to score. that kind of coverage happens in a men's league game, not the NHL. disgrace.
- hammarby31

Raffl has had 2 pretty bad games to start the season.

With the ludicrous argument going on now that a bum like Nick Shultz is depth, I'm going to argue that Coburn breaking his right foot, theoretically is things breaking right.
- PLindbergh31

He seems like a capable 7th guy.

Obviously not what you want playing every night, especially with the big holes at the top of the D rotation.

It's a chance to rotate some of the AHL guys in for a few games and see how they do.

They aren't winning the Cup soon so let's see how these guys do in spot duty.

Depth isn't just about the 7th defenseman. What is expected of Schenn and Del Zotto? Even Grossmann? The former two have been below average defensemen for the majority of their careers.
- NickTheKid87

Grossmann has been a solid defensive defenseman his entire career. Schenn is in his 7th year as an NHL defenseman. Del Zotto is trying to rebound and find his game again. It happens sometimes to young defenseman. But all 6 regulars are bona fide NHL defenseman. And Schultz in experienced and a capable 7th defenseman. The problem with his defense is not depth. The problem is it lacks a true # 1 defense pair.

Grossmann has been a solid defensive defenseman his entire career. Schenn is in his 7th year as an NHL defenseman. Del Zotto is trying to rebound and find his game again. It happens sometimes to young defenseman. But all 6 regulars are bona fide NHL defenseman. And Schultz in experienced and a capable 7th defenseman. The problem with his defense is not depth. The problem is it lacks a true # 1 defense pair.
- MJL

Depth isn't having four or five 5/6 defensemen though. Because when Timonen gets hurt and now Coburn, the players left can't step in and fill the roles adequately.

I haven't seen anything. All I've heard is that it's not going to be day to day.
- PhillySportsGuy

Between this and the (imo yet to truly unfold) Pronger situation, the outlook is cloudy. Do not like.

My point is that the Flyers defense is not a strong point, and losing a guy long term and having Schultz in there LONG TERM is a serious problem. Doesnt mean they wont have ups and downs, just that it is going to be a tough thing to fight through.

I know you love to pick things apart.. but there is no way you can sit there say that we have a good defense and good depth. It is an absolute weakness.

Okay okay, the team defense can pick it up and help out and carry their load and that can make up for some of the short comings .. But the fact that we need to change our mindset offensively to help the defense is glaring itself.
- jak521

You're arguing two different things. Even with Coburn in the lineup, we know that they lack a legitimate top pairing.

You are simply wrong in saying the Flyers don't have defensive depth. They have plenty of defensive depth players. The problem with this defense is that they don't have #1 defenseman, and they lack a legitimate top pair.

Nick Grossmann has played 26 more NHL games than Luke Schenn.

He seems like a capable 7th guy.

Obviously not what you want playing every night, especially with the big holes at the top of the D rotation.

It's a chance to rotate some of the AHL guys in for a few games and see how they do.

They aren't winning the Cup soon so let's see how these guys do in spot duty.
- Marc D

Agreed. I'm encouraged at least the prospect pool is being built up. There are some legit prospects that have a chance to have bright futures. There is no guarantees of course. And even if they are, they are still years away from contributing at a high level.

It's a hard pill to swallow, but lets face it, the Cup drought is now at 40 years, and they couldn't be further away from winning it if they were playing games on Saturn.

My point is that the Flyers defense is not a strong point, and losing a guy long term and having Schultz in there LONG TERM is a serious problem. Doesnt mean they wont have ups and downs, just that it is going to be a tough thing to fight through.

I know you love to pick things apart.. but there is no way you can sit there say that we have a good defense and good depth. It is an absolute weakness.

Okay okay, the team defense can pick it up and help out and carry their load and that can make up for some of the short comings .. But the fact that we need to change our mindset offensively to help the defense is glaring itself.
- jak521

For what team wouldn't it be a long term problem?

Ugly game by Mason. Sorry, yes, I think a few of those goals are on him. Emery next game.

Marc, that they fell behind and had to play catch up is not an excuse for the poor fundamental play of any forward defensively. You don't abandon simple backchecks or routine defensive zone coverage because you're behind 3-0 in the 2nd period of a game, with a lot of hockey left to play.

In the center lock forecheck, part of the system is that the center and the weak side defenseman have to read off of each other, to defend against breakouts and reverse plays. On the Zubrus goal, Streit made a bad decision on the pinch because he really had too far to go, and no real play on the puck. Voracek correctly backed him up and made a real nice effort on the backcheck. Mason should've made that save.
- MJL

Yeh I know this.

In a perfect world our forwards would play two way games like Kopitar and Bergeron.

But really they aren't at that level of two way play from what I've seen.

When they push the attack to catch up there is a higher chance they get caught and it leads to breakdowns.

I'm not trying to make excuses, the Elias goal was awful example of them breaking down.

Just observing what I saw.

Depth isn't having four or five 5/6 defensemen though. Because when Timonen gets hurt and now Coburn, the players left can't step in and fill the roles adequately.
- NickTheKid87

The Flyers have 3 legitimate top 4 NHL defenseman, and 6 bona fide NHL defensman. Players like Grossmann and Schenn to this point are the very definition of depth defenseman. The problem is that they lack a legitimate top pairing, and the injury to Coburn accentuates that issue.

Maybe your definition of depth is having 3 or 4 top pair defenseman.

Yeh I know this.

In a perfect world our forwards would play two way games like Kopitar and Bergeron.

But really they aren't at that level of two way play from what I've seen.

When they push the attack to catch up there is a higher chance they get caught and it leads to breakdowns.

I'm not trying to make excuses, the Elias goal was awful example of them breaking down.

Just observing what I saw.
- Marc D

Not asking them to play to the level of Kopitar and Bergeron. Asking them to execute basic defensive zone coverage and back checks. In my opinion, it had zero to do with pushing the attack.

Ugly game by Mason. Sorry, yes, I think a few of those goals are on him. Emery next game.
- coffee junkie

In retrospect I wish Berube had given Emery the start of the 2nd game of the back to back.

But yesterday afternoon I admit I wanted Mase to start because I felt he gave them the best shot at winning. Maybe it was the wrong decision given it was back to back games.

Raffl has had 2 pretty bad games to start the season.
- nastyflyergirl

I'd move him to the fourth line and give Belle the third line wing opening- he has earned it.

As for the D, does anyone have a feeling of Manning or Alt? I though Mad Man Manning had the better camp and would give it to him. I expect the pre-season Shultz to rear its ugly head sooner then later.

For what team wouldn't it be a long term problem?
- MBFlyerfan

If they want to make the point, that by already being short a legitimate top pair, that losing you're top defenseman to a long term injury is harder on the Flyers, then a team like Chicago that has two horses like Keith and Seabrooke, then they have a point. But for most teams, losing that player has a big impact. And I don't know of any team that has a 7th defenseman that is any more then a 7th defenseman.

In retrospect I wish Berube had given Emery the start of the 2nd game of the back to back.

But yesterday afternoon I admit I wanted Mase to start because I felt he gave them the best shot at winning. Maybe it was the wrong decision given it was back to back games.
- Marc D

I wanted the same thing as I felt the NJ game was more 'winnable' and that we needed to get an early win to build confidence. It proved to be the wrong choice. 20/20 etc. I would now start Emery after Mason's poop stain of a game is cleaned up from the Wells Fargo ice.

Ugly game by Mason. Sorry, yes, I think a few of those goals are on him. Emery next game.
- coffee junkie

I wouldn't say a few. I'd just say the Zubrus goal. He should make that stop.

Grossmann has been a solid defensive defenseman his entire career. Schenn is in his 7th year as an NHL defenseman. Del Zotto is trying to rebound and find his game again. It happens sometimes to young defenseman. But all 6 regulars are bona fide NHL defenseman. And Schultz in experienced and a capable 7th defenseman. The problem with his defense is not depth. The problem is it lacks a true # 1 defense pair.
- MJL

Thats part of depth. The fact that we are super thin at the top spot means that we lack depth throughout the defense. If we had a top pairing we would have great depth because then we would have Schultz and Delzoto sitting waiting. That is great depth. Instead we have a guy who has been cut from two straight teams trying to prove himself, and Schultz who couldnt crack a starting group anywhere so he signed a deal to play as a reserve and looked like ass through pre-season.

So... we have a questionable bottom pair, a questionable top pair, a good middle group, and a decent "in-case-of-emergency 7th... Yea.. plenty of depth there.

Not asking them to play to the level of Kopitar and Bergeron. Asking them to execute basic defensive zone coverage and back checks. In my opinion, it had zero to do with pushing the attack.
- MJL

So just poor two way coverage then on the fourth goal.

I agree with that.

No excuse for that.

But I feel they did open up the attack and it did contribute to this. I'm ok with disagreeing here, it's just an opinion on what I am speculating on what happened.
No big deal.

predictions on when we see ghostebsphere
- Crimsoninja

No way they bring him up before Halloween.

No way they bring him up before Halloween.
- Pixote Andolini

Scary

Thats part of depth. The fact that we are super thin at the top spot means that we lack depth throughout the defense. If we had a top pairing we would have great depth because then we would have Schultz and Delzoto sitting waiting. That is great depth. Instead we have a guy who has been cut from two straight teams trying to prove himself, and Schultz who couldnt crack a starting group anywhere so he signed a deal to play as a reserve and looked like ass through pre-season.

So... we have a questionable bottom pair, a questionable top pair, a good middle group, and a decent "in-case-of-emergency 7th... Yea.. plenty of depth there.
- jak521

Having 6 bona fide NHL defenseman who are all good players, is having depth. A lot of teams don't have that. We have a different definition of what depth is. Flyers have plenty of defensive depth. They just lack the quality at the top. Quality and quantity are two different things.

The Flyers have 3 legitimate top 4 NHL defenseman, and 6 bona fide NHL defensman. Players like Grossmann and Schenn to this point are the very definition of depth defenseman. The problem is that they lack a legitimate top pairing, and the injury to Coburn accentuates that issue.

Maybe your definition of depth is having 3 or 4 top pair defenseman.
- MJL

Having "depth defenseman" does not mean that you, as a team, have depth. If I have 10 guys that are no. 4s, do I have depth ... or do I have a **** defense? Depth is about having the parts to absorb losses and not lose a whole lot.

Therein lies the problem. If you can't field a true top pairing from the outset, you are left pushing everyone up into roles that they cannot adequately fill. That's a lack of depth ... and the problem that is the top pairing was a problem coming into the season (even with a healthy Timonen, who has lost two steps over the years). Throwing a bunch of NHL players against the wall and hoping it works out is not depth, it's a poorly constructed group.

This is why bona fide top pairing guys are so vitally important. It has as much to do with their ability to create structure and positive minutes for the rest of the defensive corps as it does with their own skill set. What the Flyers have is a defense group that is going to be spread thin, and challenged with minutes that are likely to greatly diminish their personal success.

Just as a dominant closer in baseball can provide structure for an entire bull pen, the lack of a top dog here is going to result in problems all year long for the rest of the D.