Disagree. The day Stanley handed the wonder twins $165 million, Leddy's trade value plummeted. And that had nothing to do with his ability or potential. That had to do with the Hawks being over a barrel.
- John Jaeckel

Disagree. Basic economics of supply and demand. As long as several teams were interested, each team had to outbid the other. The position of the Hawks would be more important if the market was limited (such as a NMC or NTC). The twins deals go into effect next year - Leddy's deal was done now because of this year's cap.

Would you rather have Seabrook or Shaw scrap instead? Yes actually I would. Not ever going to sell me .the Penquins...the Rangers...or the Kings and the rest of the NHL on Dan Carcillo...
- PEIHawkguy

Are you serious?

Seabrook almost always gets his butt handed to him when he fights and Shaw is a pretty small guy by NHL standards.

Look, Q does not want the team to be soft as baby poop (and honestly neither do I)...so you either get Carcillo or Mashinter.

Umm, no. Because part of the issue with Leddy was what he would want next year. Which is partially why he, and not Oduya, was sent packing.

You don't trade a player of that magnitude and promise to just squeeze under the cap this year.

I will concede that it wasn't just the twins. But if you really are saying that the Hawks cap situation (now, or next year, regardless of what caused it) was not a factor affecting what the Hawks could get back for Leddy, and lecturing on market dynamics at the same time, I mean, come on . . .

And ya, I made the same argument that once more than 1-2 teams were involved, the price would go up. But every GM involved also knew the Hawks were in a bind and no one wanted to do them any favors (from multiple sources). Bowman got Pokka and that was the best deal he could get.

Umm, no. Because part of the issue with Leddy was what he would want next year. Which is partially why he, and not Oduya, was sent packing.

You don't trade a player of that magnitude and promise to just squeeze under the cap this year.

I will concede that it wasn't just the twins. But if you really are saying that the Hawks cap situation (now, or next year, regardless of what caused it) was not a factor affecting what the Hawks could get back for Leddy, and lecturing on market dynamics at the same time, I mean, come on . . .

And ya, I made the same argument that once more than 1-2 teams were involved, the price would go up. But every GM involved also knew the Hawks were in a bind and no one wanted to do them any favors (from multiple sources). Bowman got Pokka and that was the best deal he could get.
- John Jaeckel

And from what I have read, that's not a horrible return. Leddy has enormous upside but more guys with upside never fully reach it than do.

Trading Leddy = Mistake ..... Signing Carbomb = Mistake ....Carbomb takes stupid penalties and then injures himself for long periods of time ... I don't know what stans been smoking but our 5/6 defense is weak as it was and now its worse still .
We have plenty of offense in all honesty and could of afford to get rid of Patrick Sharp and save us from this mess . I like Sharp but but he makes to much to be on this team and I am sick of his weak shot selection ( right in the goalies chest)
Yep ... they should of marketed him much earlier in the year instead of waiting for the last minute ....
- HurriKane

Trade = one last Cup Run with top players intact.

Leddy ever play solid top four minutes?

Leddy taking discount to improve to the point he is?

That's what Stan is smoking...

How many points do you expect out of Brad Richards this season, considering he should be playing on a line with Kane? Do you think he will reach at least 60 to 65 points, or is that too much to ask at his age?
- deadpoulet

He may be on the line part time...

Sharp was the guy to move .... Our third pairing of defenseman is weak and thats gonna matter in the playoffs ...
- HurriKane

planning to need goals to win

if you weren't needing goals to win...

And from what I have read, that's not a horrible return. Leddy has enormous upside but more guys with upside never fully reach it than do.
- Bjm84

Agreed.

Trade = one last Cup Run with top players intact.

Leddy ever play solid top four minutes?

Leddy taking discount to improve to the point he is?

That's what Stan is smoking...
- wiz1901

Yep

Johansen signs with CBJ at $12mil/3yrs. Figure Saad at something similar for next year.
- HawkintheD

The crappy part is the money in the last year is outrageous and will be the LOW number of arbitration when he and his agent force Columbus into the next deal.

Disagree. Basic economics of supply and demand. As long as several teams were interested, each team had to outbid the other. The position of the Hawks would be more important if the market was limited (such as a NMC or NTC). The twins deals go into effect next year - Leddy's deal was done now because of this year's cap.
- mohel

Mo, I an others have laid out how basic economics and leverage work. Buddy, how hard is it to understand that with Leddy or whoever would have been traded. Could have been Sharp....that no matter who was dealt, that you were only going to get back prospects and or picks?

So, in relation to prospects, you figure out what you might like on each team, utilizing your scouting database etc...and go from there.

THIS IDEA SO MANY ARE FLOATING ABOUT GETTING RIPPED OFF IN THE TRADE IS A STRAW MAN. YOU COULD NOT TAKE BACK SALARY...IT IS THAT SIMPLE. THAT SOME HOW LEDDY IS WHAT SO MANY ON THE BOARD FLAUNT HIM TO BE. JUST IS NOT THE CASE.

The best that you could have hoped for is to pick a guy, who may be as good as or better than Leddy 2 or 3 years from now. You are kicking entry level contracts down the road. Pokka at first glance might be that guy, he at least fits the profile.

Yes Kane and Toews deals do not kick in until next year, but the club has visibility into next year now cap wise. So to connect JJ's dots, you trade Leddy now because you will not be able to afford him later anyways.

The crappy part is the money in the last year is outrageous and will be the LOW number of arbitration when he and his agent force Columbus into the next deal.
- wiz1901

Simple way to compromise and great for the player. What took so long?

Umm, no. Because part of the issue with Leddy was what he would want next year. Which is partially why he, and not Oduya, was sent packing.

You don't trade a player of that magnitude and promise to just squeeze under the cap this year.

I will concede that it wasn't just the twins. But if you really are saying that the Hawks cap situation (now, or next year, regardless of what caused it) was not a factor affecting what the Hawks could get back for Leddy, and lecturing on market dynamics at the same time, I mean, come on . . .

And ya, I made the same argument that once more than 1-2 teams were involved, the price would go up. But every GM involved also knew the Hawks were in a bind and no one wanted to do them any favors (from multiple sources). Bowman got Pokka and that was the best deal he could get.
- John Jaeckel

Better to spend the money on your twins than the Vancouver twins.

Mo, I an others have laid out how basic economics and leverage work. Buddy, how hard is it to understand that with Leddy or whoever would have been traded. Could have been Sharp....that no matter who was dealt, that you were only going to get back prospects and or picks?

So, in relation to prospects, you figure out what you might like on each team, utilizing your scouting database etc...and go from there.

THIS IDEA SO MANY ARE FLOATING ABOUT GETTING RIPPED OFF IN THE TRADE IS A STRAW MAN. YOU COULD NOT TAKE BACK SALARY...IT IS THAT SIMPLE. THAT SOME HOW LEDDY IS WHAT SO MANY ON THE BOARD FLAUNT HIM TO BE. JUST IS NOT THE CASE.

The best that you could have hoped for is to pick a guy, who may be as good as or better than Leddy 2 or 3 years from now. You are kicking entry level contracts down the road. Pokka at first glance might be that guy, he at least fits the profile.

Yes Kane and Toews deals do not kick in until next year, but the club has visibility into next year now cap wise. So to connect JJ's dots, you trade Leddy now because you will not be able to afford him later anyways.
- TrueGrit

Well said.

Yep
- John Jaeckel

Idk if anyone noticed but the addition of Leddy was not the only one that was made on the back end for the Isles. They are quietly up there as having one of the deepest back end's in the league now.

I find all the Carbomb hate hilarious. We are paying him nothing. He will finish his checks and from what I have heard about his first stint here, he has solid attributes and is not a hazard in the locker room. He was at one point playing on a line with 88-81 and I noticed more huff and puff from Big Hoss when he had saad forced down his throat then when he was playing on a line with carbomb.

Trade = one last Cup Run with top players intact.

Leddy ever play solid top four minutes?

Leddy taking discount to improve to the point he is?

That's what Stan is smoking...
- wiz1901

I think Leddy is what he was/is now. A top 4 dman on a shaky blue line or a third pairing dman on a very good team. I doubt youll ever see leddy be a top 4 dman on a cup contending team

Mo, I an others have laid out how basic economics and leverage work. Buddy, how hard is it to understand that with Leddy or whoever would have been traded. Could have been Sharp....that no matter who was dealt, that you were only going to get back prospects and or picks?

So, in relation to prospects, you figure out what you might like on each team, utilizing your scouting database etc...and go from there.

THIS IDEA SO MANY ARE FLOATING ABOUT GETTING RIPPED OFF IN THE TRADE IS A STRAW MAN. YOU COULD NOT TAKE BACK SALARY...IT IS THAT SIMPLE. THAT SOME HOW LEDDY IS WHAT SO MANY ON THE BOARD FLAUNT HIM TO BE. JUST IS NOT THE CASE.

The best that you could have hoped for is to pick a guy, who may be as good as or better than Leddy 2 or 3 years from now. You are kicking entry level contracts down the road. Pokka at first glance might be that guy, he at least fits the profile.

Yes Kane and Toews deals do not kick in until next year, but the club has visibility into next year now cap wise. So to connect JJ's dots, you trade Leddy now because you will not be able to afford him later anyways.
- TrueGrit

Jesus Christ why is this so hard for folks to understand ?

Its not Chaos Math.

Leddy gave the Hawks the best possible return and the most cap relief.

Its that simple.

Oduya makes the Hawks better this year than Leddy does.

Cap space has an effect on leverage . Player for Player trades are rare Talent for Cap relief is actual currency in the NHL. When these silly beat writers analuze these trafes and only talk about the players involved and not the $ involved they are missing 1/2 of the trade.

The money matters folks.

Umm, no. Because part of the issue with Leddy was what he would want next year. Which is partially why he, and not Oduya, was sent packing.

You don't trade a player of that magnitude and promise to just squeeze under the cap this year.

I will concede that it wasn't just the twins. But if you really are saying that the Hawks cap situation (now, or next year, regardless of what caused it) was not a factor affecting what the Hawks could get back for Leddy, and lecturing on market dynamics at the same time, I mean, come on . . .

And ya, I made the same argument that once more than 1-2 teams were involved, the price would go up. But every GM involved also knew the Hawks were in a bind and no one wanted to do them any favors (from multiple sources). Bowman got Pokka and that was the best deal he could get.
- John Jaeckel

Oh, well. I tried. The law of supply and demand apply to the world of hockey. You say he is an up and coming player, yet no team wanted to pay more than the Isles simply because the Hawks needed to trade someone (not necessarily Leddy)? And this actually makes sense to you?

To spell it out further... Let's say the Sabres also had interest in Leddy and think he's a really good player. Do you really think they would lose the bidding to the Isles because of the Hawks situation?l will answer for you..... No. They would stop bidding when they think the incoming asset isn't worth the cost.

Agreed.
- John Jaeckel

So, wait...... haven't you been saying the Hawks were over a barrel because of spot they were in? Now you're saying they got a good return? Seems tough for both to be true.

The crappy part is the money in the last year is outrageous and will be the LOW number of arbitration when he and his agent force Columbus into the next deal.
- wiz1901

I heard on the radio that he's getting $3MM the first two and $6MM the third.

Wasn't there some kind of rule in the new CBA about a wide variance of annual salary to mitigate a cap hit? Or was that just for long term deals that circumvented the cap structure (Like Hossa's)?

Mo, I an others have laid out how basic economics and leverage work. Buddy, how hard is it to understand that with Leddy or whoever would have been traded. Could have been Sharp....that no matter who was dealt, that you were only going to get back prospects and or picks?

So, in relation to prospects, you figure out what you might like on each team, utilizing your scouting database etc...and go from there.

THIS IDEA SO MANY ARE FLOATING ABOUT GETTING RIPPED OFF IN THE TRADE IS A STRAW MAN. YOU COULD NOT TAKE BACK SALARY...IT IS THAT SIMPLE. THAT SOME HOW LEDDY IS WHAT SO MANY ON THE BOARD FLAUNT HIM TO BE. JUST IS NOT THE CASE.

The best that you could have hoped for is to pick a guy, who may be as good as or better than Leddy 2 or 3 years from now. You are kicking entry level contracts down the road. Pokka at first glance might be that guy, he at least fits the profile.

Yes Kane and Toews deals do not kick in until next year, but the club has visibility into next year now cap wise. So to connect JJ's dots, you trade Leddy now because you will not be able to afford him later anyways.
- TrueGrit

TG, buddy, thanks for the input. You are making things up - I never said they could get a roster player. I said they got market value for Leddy. Is that really difficult to get? Many here think they could have received better prospects/picks because the Hawks were over a barrel. I think they are wrong and explained why - because a real market existed.

TG, buddy, thanks for the input. You are making things up - I never said they could get a roster player. I said they got market value for Leddy. Is that really difficult to get? Many here think they could have received better prospects/picks because the Hawks were over a barrel. I think they are wrong and explained why - because a real market existed.
- mohel

Not sure why this is such a windy debate and thought I was missing something, because I never saw you looking for a roster player as the return.

I think most of us get that the Hawks were only getting picks/prospects for almost anyone traded from the roster due to the cap crunch.

If the Hawks had no leverage how were they able to get a decent prospect at all?

Oh, well. I tried. The law of supply and demand apply to the world of hockey. You say he is an up and coming player, yet no team wanted to pay more than the Isles simply because the Hawks needed to trade someone (not necessarily Leddy)? And this actually makes sense to you?

To spell it out further... Let's say the Sabres also had interest in Leddy and think he's a really good player. Do you really think they would lose the bidding to the Isles because of the Hawks situation?l will answer for you..... No. They would stop bidding when they think the incoming asset isn't worth the cost.



- mohel

I think Leddy's still a bit of a mystery- he's a dynamic skater with some serious offensive upside - but his defensive zone gaffes and playoff benchings have to have put his value somewhat in flux.

Overall, I don't think the team made a bad move here, given the circumstances. I don't know exactly how many teams were clamoring for him this late in the game, and everyone new the 'Hawks were up against it. From what I've read about Pokka the past few days, I don't think that this was a worst case scenario. I would have liked to see a higher-round draft pick in there though.

JJ is right in the sense that they moved the correct d-man between Leddy and Oduya (and Roszival, whose trade some have lobbied for). Oduya's proven he can go toe-to-toe against top-six talent in critical situation. He's also (at least) rumored to have agreed to a discounted extension in principle, moving forward into a year where cap compliance is going to be a bear. Leddy and his agent apparently think that his raw abilities translate into top-4 or even top-2 money. Given the team's make-up for the next several seasons, it just wasn't a fit.

Roszival is gone next year anyway, and moving him would have probably required attaching prospect talent (McNeill, Morin , etc.). Going into next year, they're going to need these low-salary guys to round out the roster, and hope to god they develop into effective NHL players.

Not sure why this is such a windy debate and thought I was missing something, because I never saw you looking for a roster player as the return.

I think most of us get that the Hawks were only getting picks/prospects for almost anyone traded from the roster due to the cap crunch.

If the Hawks had no leverage how were they able to get a decent prospect at all?
- HawkintheD

Yep, can't have it both ways. Either the Hawks got a good return or they didn't (because they were over the proverbial barrel). The form of the return (pick/prospects/roster player) was never part of my point.

Oh, well. I tried. The law of supply and demand apply to the world of hockey. You say he is an up and coming player, yet no team wanted to pay more than the Isles simply because the Hawks needed to trade someone (not necessarily Leddy)? And this actually makes sense to you?

To spell it out further... Let's say the Sabres also had interest in Leddy and think he's a really good player. Do you really think they would lose the bidding to the Isles because of the Hawks situation?l will answer for you..... No. They would stop bidding when they think the incoming asset isn't worth the cost.



- mohel

And quite obviously that is what every other team did. You figured it out on your own. Many/most teams would have needed to trade an NHL contract back. It is safe to say that the price that West teams would have to pay vs and East team would be higher as well. There is not trade clearinghouse that makes teams trade with each other.

Whether you believe it or not, the Hawks had a clear idea on what players/prospects they wanted from each team. IF those teams were not willing to deal those guys, then adding free floor mats, undercoating and the leather interior would not matter.