Common guys, it's this clown:


- Tomahawk

Suck it!

I am concerned with these pairings. Frankly MacDonald did not fair to well on the top pair with the Isles, of course he is one player on two different teams so maybe he will be better but to make things worse you have him paired with Coburn who is too inconsistent. Some times he plays really well and other times you get what you saw VS Rangers in playoffs. I still do not understand some of the plays Coburn made. Coburn rounds his own net with a man on and tries to pass the puck with one hand on his stick and turns it over, Really? The other one was directing MacDonald and as he was doing that Carcillo just skated by for a tap in goal.

Streit and Grossman I am ok with but my concern is with Grossman and his puck handling. He is great at playing defence but the second he has the puck, you start to cringe. As for MDZ and Schenn, the concern is what player is going to show up. Is MDZ that was coveted by the league going to show or that disaster of a player that played last season and with Schenn it would be Playoff Schenn or Struggled until MacDonald Came Schenn. I'd be More comfortable with:

Streit-Coburn
AMac - Schenn
MDZ - Grossman

Here's the clip for lazy ppl:
https://nbcprohockeytalk....m/2014/09/leiwekefull.mp3

Really interesting what he says about ExtraSkater... said it was a site 'that every GM used', but they wanted to monopolize it, so they hired the guy.

Also confirms what some of us were talking about yesterday: Leafs weren't doing much of anything in analytics before this summer at all.

If Giroux can do 85+ points, Schenn 55+, Voracek 65+, Simmonds 60+, Read 45+, Couturier 45+, Lecavalier 40+, Umberger 35+, Raffl or Akeson 30+ then the offense will be there. The problem I see is having this forward mix be effective in other ways especially team defense and physicality.
- NickTheKid87

I think a healthy Vinny can hit 25 goals and 50 points. Umberger I think will be the same as last season, hopefully he can chip in 18-20 goals.

I am concerned with these pairings. Frankly MacDonald did not fair to well on the top pair with the Isles, of course he is one player on two different teams so maybe he will be better but to make things worse you have him paired with Coburn who is too inconsistent. Some times he plays really well and other times you get what you saw VS Rangers in playoffs. I still do not understand some of the plays Coburn made. Coburn rounds his own net with a man on and tries to pass the puck with one hand on his stick and turns it over, Really? The other one was directing MacDonald and as he was doing that Carcillo just skated by for a tap in goal.

Streit and Grossman I am ok with but my concern is with Grossman and his puck handling. He is great at playing defence but the second he has the puck, you start to cringe. As for MDZ and Schenn, the concern is what player is going to show up. Is MDZ that was coveted by the league going to show or that disaster of a player that played last season and with Schenn it would be Playoff Schenn or Struggled until MacDonald Came Schenn. I'd be More comfortable with:

Streit-Coburn
AMac - Schenn
MDZ - Grossman
- xShoot4WarAmpsx

No matter how you list them, MacDonald is going to get a lot of minutes against good competition because they don't have many other options. Ideally, he'd be on the 2nd pair complementing another player but the Flyers are in a situation far from ideal.

I think a healthy Vinny can hit 25 goals and 50 points. Umberger I think will be the same as last season, hopefully he can chip in 18-20 goals.
- xShoot4WarAmpsx

I agree. I could see Vinny playing 65 games and scoring 25 goals and 25 assists. If he plays like he did last year, maybe he'll retire and we'll be off the hook.

Here's the clip for lazy ppl:
https://nbcprohockeytalk....m/2014/09/leiwekefull.mp3

Really interesting what he says about ExtraSkater... said it was a site 'that every GM used', but they wanted to monopolize it, so they hired the guy.

Also confirms what some of us were talking about yesterday: Leafs weren't doing much of anything in analytics before this summer at all.
- Tomahawk

But NHL teams use so much more advanced stats than a random schmuck could hunt down on the internet

Here's the clip for lazy ppl:
https://nbcprohockeytalk....m/2014/09/leiwekefull.mp3

Really interesting what he says about ExtraSkater... said it was a site 'that every GM used', but they wanted to monopolize it, so they hired the guy.

Also confirms what some of us were talking about yesterday: Leafs weren't doing much of anything in analytics before this summer at all.
- Tomahawk

But NHL teams use so much more advanced stats than a random schmuck could hunt down on the internet

Those top lines are fantastic, but I question where the offense is coming from on that third line. Akeson is a heck of a playmaker and should be given a chance but I doubt Vinny or Umberger are going to help him out much although they provide leadership and solid defensive play. Raffl, Rinaldo and Bellemore could be a heck of a fourth line.
- Slipperypickle

This is the stuff that puzzles me. Akeson, who's played all of what, 8 NHL games is a heck of a playmaker! But there is doubts that proven NHL players such as Umberger and 400+ goal scorer Lecavalier are going to help him out much?

- MBFlyerfan

I agree. I could see Vinny playing 65 games and scoring 25 goals and 25 assists. If he plays like he did last year, maybe he'll retire and we'll be off the hook.
- NickTheKid87

Doubt it. Vinny will wait out the contract to continue getting paid.

But NHL teams use so much more advanced stats than a random schmuck could hunt down on the internet
- Jsaquella

Do you smell smoke??

No matter how you list them, MacDonald is going to get a lot of minutes against good competition because they don't have many other options. Ideally, he'd be on the 2nd pair complementing another player but the Flyers are in a situation far from ideal.
- NickTheKid87

It's scary, but even Coburn needs somebody to carry him through his ups and downs.

Whatever the pairs end up being, there's nobody around to cover for a weak sister anymore. Schenn, MDZ, AMac... they've got to pull their weight consistently.

Doubt it. Vinny will wait out the contract to continue getting paid.
- xShoot4WarAmpsx

I could see that happening. Or I could see him retiring if he plays 50 games a scores 15 points. He don't seem like he's just in it for the money. Either way, Tampa will still be paying him his buyout money.

It's scary, but even Coburn needs somebody to carry him through his ups and downs.

Whatever the pairs end up being, there's nobody around to cover for a weak sister anymore. Schenn, MDZ, AMac... they've got to hold their weight consistently.
- Tomahawk

It's really been that way the last few years once Pronger got hurt and Timonen got older. Before, Timonen could adequately complement Coburn but now Coburn's gotta be that guy for AMac or Streit or whoever. So far he's done an ok job but ok isn't what you want out of your top pair.

But NHL teams use so much more advanced stats than a random schmuck could hunt down on the internet
- Jsaquella

They dont use different stats, they use different and better data to compile the numbers for their own players.

But NHL teams use so much more advanced stats than a random schmuck could hunt down on the internet
- Jsaquella

They dont use different stats, they use different and better data to compile the numbers for their own players.
- MJL

So they were going on ExtraSkater to... uh... plug their own data in ?

(and if you're the Leafs, it's data you weren't even collecting)

It's really been that way the last few years once Pronger got hurt and Timonen got older. Before, Timonen could adequately complement Coburn but now Coburn's gotta be that guy for AMac or Streit or whoever. So far he's done an ok job but ok isn't what you want out of your top pair.
- NickTheKid87

Kimmo basically made Schenn in that lockout year... and got Coburn's game back on track this past season.

I'm really scared of life post-#44.

Kimmo basically made Schenn in that lockout year... and got Coburn's game back on track this past season.

I'm really scared of life post-#44.
- Tomahawk

He was a legit #1 pairing dman. Even when he started to fall off he stay ahead of the pack. Last year he was still a solid 2nd pairing guy.

So they were going on ExtraSkater to... uh... plug their own data in ?

(and if you're the Leafs, it's data you weren't even collecting)
- Tomahawk

I don't doubt that NHL execs look at analytic websites. Why not? Doesn't equate to how much value or how much they actually used the numbers from those websites and involved them in their decision making. I also doubt that Liewski has the inside knowledge of what every NHL GM used or did. I think it's quite clear that teams are pretty secretive in what and how they use analytics, and are unwilling to talk about it.

And neither you, nor I know what the Leafs were doing.

Kimmo basically made Schenn in that lockout year... and got Coburn's game back on track this past season.

I'm really scared of life post-#44.
- Tomahawk

terrifying. i'm having a hard time coming to grips with it... no pronger no timonen...

And neither you, nor I know what the Leafs were doing.
- MJL

Their Pres + CEO: “very little analytical information”

I believe

Their Pres + CEO: “very little analytical information”
- Tomahawk

Lots of voices coming from the Leafs. Presidents and CEO's tend to be more on the business side, rather then the player personell department. Nonis, who is in the hockey operations department said they did use analytics. To what extent, we don't know. But I think it's clear they're expanding in that area with recent hires.

http://prohockeytalk.nbcs...eafs-were-anti-analytics/