A lot of Quebec and Winnipeg leaving had to do with the 90s recession and the fact that the Canadian dollar was about 65 cents to the US dollar. Coupled with bad ownership it's a little more complicated than 'the NHL just didn't care'. The NHL cares about making money, bottom line, and without equalizaation payments, better tv deals, salary caps and two lockouts a lot more cities would have lost their teams. They stay in places like FLA, Carolina and PHX when it looks bad because unlike Edmonton, these places have a lot of potential money to be made. Edmonton is a storied franchise and I am glad they saved them, but the NHL has no bias for or against any markets, they just want money.
- James_Tanner

So why the decade long fight for the Coyotes?

you're never going to have 30 solid stable teams at once and here's why - when teams are unsuccessful for a while attendance drops. The Vancouver canucks who've been selling out for years and had wait lists for season tickets are now looking for more season ticket holders after missing the playoffs for the first time in a while. The Isles have attendance problems but when they made the playoffs the fans came back out (then sucked last year and the fan support, which was good at the start of the season started to drop again)

You will never have 30 stable teams making money at once. It's a cycle. If the team sucks (aside from fans in Toronto) they don't sell out. When they get better (and do it for more than one year) fan support grows. You make money in the NHL by building a team that can consistently be in the mix each year.

Two more teams would be perfect to fill out the western conference, having 2 extra teams in the east miss the playoffs each year is bullsh!t. Either even them out by moving one team in the east to the west or add two more teams through expansion to even it up.

Yep..

Than expansion to LV and Toronto......
- Fruitcakenipple

Would a second team in Toronto - even tho 20% of Canadians live in the GTA - result in higher TV viewers for Canadian national TV (Rogers?)? You already have probably outrageously high viewership in the GTA now.

If not, I would think they would want to go where they would increase the eyeballs on the game, whether in the US or Canada.

So why the decade long fight for the Coyotes?
- Jeropotato

no kidding. Aside from Atlanta (where the NHL moved from like a deadbeat renter in the middle of the night) Phoenix has been a problem franchise for a heck of a long time. They've been given far more time to try and make it work there than they probably should have been. It seems a bit hypocritical for the phoenix writer to say "no more expansion" when they really should have moved from Phoenix several years ago.

So why the decade long fight for the Coyotes?
- Jeropotato

National TV ratings for NBC - the only reason leagues usually do anything.

Would a second team in Toronto - even tho 20% of Canadians live in the GTA - result in higher TV viewers for Canadian national TV (Rogers?)? You already have probably outrageously high viewership in the GTA now.

If not, I would think they would want to go where they would increase the eyeballs on the game, whether in the US or Canada.
- StLBravesFan

At some point "increasing the new eye balls" will end, yep a second team in Toronto would be nothing more than a money maker and not about new fans.. ..Imo the league has reached the point that it's not about new markets/fans but taking advantage of markets where fans already exist..



Toronto and Quebec city would make major coin for the league...New fans?? Nope...

At some point "increasing the new eye balls" will end, yep a second team in Toronto would be nothing more than a money maker and not about new fans.. ..Imo the league has reached the point that it's not about new markets/fans but taking advantage of markets where fans already exist..

- Fruitcakenipple

Then a second team in Toronto won't get them more money from Rogers.

And while they would be growing game-day revenues - ticket sales, food, etc. - they may not be growing merchandise sales - sweaters and hats and t-shirts: just ex-Leaf fans now buying the new team's stuff.

Then a second team in Toronto won't get them more money from Rogers.

And while they would be growing game-day revenues - ticket sales, food, etc. - they may not be growing merchandise sales - sweaters and hats and t-shirts: just ex-Leaf dans now buying the new team's stuff.
- StLBravesFan

They would have to market it towards kids to sell the merch...notany new adult fans in the GTA I would think. Maybe if they purposely targeted ethnic players they could tap into a new markets of non hockey fans.

I hope that didn't come across as racist.

They would have to market it towards kids to sell the merch...notany new adult fans in the GTA I would think. Maybe if they purposely targeted ethnic players they could tap into a new markets of non hockey fans.

I hope that didn't come across as racist.
- Jeropotato

Maybe a little anti-Semitic, but not racist.

That's where the growth has to come from in both countries, but the league is going to have to make investments in inner-city facilities and equipment.

There is no reason that African-Americans on both sides of the border, or second/third generation Hispanics (first-gen are probably hopelessly connected to soccer) can't become rabid hockey fans.

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.

32 is the correct number. I'd move 2 and add 2 to get there. That yields 4 divisions of 8 teams each, 2 in the West and 2 in the East. Viable cities include (in no particular order): Seattle, Portland, Las Vegas, Milwaukee, 2nd Toronto and Quebec. Sorry, KC, you had your chance (Scouts) and you don't support the 1st place Royals.

Vegas would be a great place. The NFL doesn't go there because they already have a gambling problem. Hell, if not for gambling, the NFL wouldn't be nearly the size it is. No one is betting on the NHL. The city has lots of tourists with lots of money to spend and looking for something to do in the evening. It would also be a great road trip for fans of teams where it's hard to get a ticket (Boston, Toronto, Chicago, Montreal). I get there 3-4 times a year for business, and I would absolutely go to a game if in town, no matter who was in town. And I'd make the trip to see the Blackhawks.

Also, there are plenty of players available world wide to support 2 new teams. Heck, you could take either Latvia or Switzerland from the Sochi Olympics, plug them into the NHL, and they would probably make the playoffs. Lots of guys are stuck in the AHL with no where to go. And plenty of new players coming along every year from Junior and college.

I'd move Arizona to Seattle (5 year out), and Florida to Quebec. Then I'd add Milwaukee and Portland. Greater Toronto would then be available for a relocation of a failing team (looking at you Islanders).
- scottak

Gotta say I agree with a lot of this

Maybe a little anti-Semitic, but not racist.

That's where the growth has to come from in both countries, but the league is going to have to make investments in inner-city facilities and equipment.

There is no reason that African-Americans on both sides of the border, or second/third generation Hispanics (first-gen are probably hopelessly connected to soccer) can't become rabid hockey fans.
- StLBravesFan

That and marketing towards kids.

James, I think the word you're looking for is Relocation

That and marketing towards kids.
- Jeropotato

Listen that's great and all, but the people who can afford to play hockey are largely whites, so targeting a demographic who will have a hard time actually playing to love the game is a waste.

you're never going to have 30 solid stable teams at once and here's why - when teams are unsuccessful for a while attendance drops. The Vancouver canucks who've been selling out for years and had wait lists for season tickets are now looking for more season ticket holders after missing the playoffs for the first time in a while. The Isles have attendance problems but when they made the playoffs the fans came back out (then sucked last year and the fan support, which was good at the start of the season started to drop again)

You will never have 30 stable teams making money at once. It's a cycle. If the team sucks (aside from fans in Toronto) they don't sell out. When they get better (and do it for more than one year) fan support grows. You make money in the NHL by building a team that can consistently be in the mix each year.

Two more teams would be perfect to fill out the western conference, having 2 extra teams in the east miss the playoffs each year is bullsh!t. Either even them out by moving one team in the east to the west or add two more teams through expansion to even it up.
- Isles_since_6

^ Listen to this man.

Listen that's great and all, but the people who can afford to play hockey are largely whites, so targeting a demographic who will have a hard time actually playing to love the game is a waste.
- TheCalSen

I did say the league and teams are going to have to make investments in facilities and equipment for inner city kids.

I say move Phoenix to Seattle/Portland and Florida to KC. Then look at Quebec and OKC for expansion.

Pfft. They have to expand. The West is short 2 teams. I do think some teams should relocate though. I am not convinced Florida should have 2 teams, NJ was in financial trouble last year, I don't know if their situation is any better since then and of course Arizona Coyotes.

Lets face it, not many people there like hockey, it sucks for the group that do and the Canadian fans who do travel down there for games but I don't see why people are going to change their minds about hockey just because you want them to. A lot of the big market cities love hockey because the grew up playing it in the winter. Some stubborn Americans still compare it to figure skating. I was a guy rooting for them to do well but I have lost faith, being a populated state just isn't enough if no one cares about the sport.

you're never going to have 30 solid stable teams at once and here's why - when teams are unsuccessful for a while attendance drops. The Vancouver canucks who've been selling out for years and had wait lists for season tickets are now looking for more season ticket holders after missing the playoffs for the first time in a while. The Isles have attendance problems but when they made the playoffs the fans came back out (then sucked last year and the fan support, which was good at the start of the season started to drop again)

You will never have 30 stable teams making money at once. It's a cycle. If the team sucks (aside from fans in Toronto) they don't sell out. When they get better (and do it for more than one year) fan support grows. You make money in the NHL by building a team that can consistently be in the mix each year.

Two more teams would be perfect to fill out the western conference, having 2 extra teams in the east miss the playoffs each year is bullsh!t. Either even them out by moving one team in the east to the west or add two more teams through expansion to even it up.
- Isles_since_6

You can have 30 stable teams, if people stop attending because their team sucks they aren't real fans. Real fans enjoy watching hockey. It doesn't matter if their team missed the playoffs 2 seasons in a row or if they have won the cup 2 years in a row. A hockey fan goes to watch hockey because they love the sport. In 2007 I travelled down from Canada to watch the Flyers play even though they were the worst team in the league. Hell I have gone to Toronto to see games, I saw Toronto play the Isles and I'm not a fan of either team, I have gone to Buffalo to watch them play. I've seen them play Caps, Ducks and Habs. If you don't enjoy hockey and don't go to games because they suck, you end up like the Pens and almost lose your team.

Listen that's great and all, but the people who can afford to play hockey are largely whites, so targeting a demographic who will have a hard time actually playing to love the game is a waste.
- TheCalSen

East Indians can afford to play. Most of them who make it to Canada are loaded anyway.

You can have 30 stable teams, if people stop attending because their team sucks they aren't real fans. Real fans enjoy watching hockey. It doesn't matter if their team missed the playoffs 2 seasons in a row or if they have won the cup 2 years in a row. A hockey fan goes to watch hockey because they love the sport. In 2007 I travelled down from Canada to watch the Flyers play even though they were the worst team in the league. Hell I have gone to Toronto to see games, I saw Toronto play the Isles and I'm not a fan of either team, I have gone to Buffalo to watch them play. I've seen them play Caps, Ducks and Habs. If you don't enjoy hockey and don't go to games because they suck, you end up like the Pens and almost lose your team.
- xShoot4WarAmpsx

Typical Flyers moron who doesn't know sh*t about the team. The Pens almost moved because of bad ownership and an ancient building.

During the worst of the worst times the fans still nearly filled that horrible building at nearly 80%. That was after the team literally sold off their best players and were charging 100 bucks a ticket for an AHL team. Fans support was never the problem.

I say move Phoenix to Seattle/Portland and Florida to KC. Then look at Quebec and OKC for expansion.
- Feds91Stammer

I say give Quebec City a team and one of Seattle or KC a team. The loser of Seattle and KC gets the Yotes in another 4 years.

That's not a stab at the Yotes in all honesty, either. Most have already mentioned it in this thread, but the team has had more than enough time to be "successful". If they aren't self-sustained when their current lease is up, I say (finally) move them.

I say give Quebec City a team and one of Seattle or KC a team. The loser of Seattle and KC gets the Yotes in another 4 years.

That's not a stab at the Yotes in all honesty, either. Most have already mentioned it in this thread, but the team has had more than enough time to be "successful". If they aren't self-sustained when their current lease is up, I say (finally) move them.
- mochoson

When the Coyote is so lame it can't lick it's own ass clean anymore, gotta take the b!tch out back and shoot it.

Typical Flyers moron who doesn't know sh*t about the team. The Pens almost moved because of bad ownership and an ancient building.

During the worst of the worst times the fans still nearly filled that horrible building at nearly 80%. That was after the team literally sold off their best players and were charging 100 bucks a ticket for an AHL team. Fans support was never the problem.
- madmike71

I'm not an expert on this particular situation, but the logic behind your post doesn't really make sense. It could very well be fact; maybe I just need some clarification?

How was it "bad ownership" if the team was still filling the stadium at nearly 80% capacity while charging 100 bucks (which is how much now!?) per ticket for such a bad team? What does the building being "ancient" have to do with anything if they had regular attendance in the upper 70's?

I'm not saying you're wrong, it just doesn't make much sense to me.

^ Listen to this man.
- TheCalSen

That's just belly aching. Still gotta be in the top 8.....I would be more pissed if I couldn't be as poopty and missed out on the lottery because there were too many bottom feeders.

That's just belly aching. Still gotta be in the top 8.....I would be more pissed if I couldn't be as poopty and missed out on the lottery because there were too many bottom feeders.
- Jeropotato

agreed & yeah, 2 new teams will be bad for a while