I love how Sabres fans pop in here and tell us how bad this new guy is or that guy is and how they won't help us as much as we think etc etc. It's like they are trying to convince themselves that the isles aren't better then last year

- Vukota

First, I didn't say Halak wasn't good, I stated he played on strong defensive teams and if you took the time to check it out you would agree with me. Your own fans have said the Islanders gave up to many scoring chances so it goes without saying if your defense doesn't tighten up things won't change in that respect. I would expect De Haan will improve over his rookie year and if Reinhart makes it he'll help for sure but he will make the mistakes that come with being a rookie D-man in the NHL.

It's no difference then with the Sabres..Ristolainen got his feet wet last year 34 games and if he sticks this year he's still going to make some rookie mistakes...it's a given but when all is said and done he's going to be a stud for years to come much like De haan and Reinhart for you guys.
I don't see the Sabres being much better then last year for one reason and that's in net. Without Miller last year this team would have been a bigger embarrassment then they were and the 2 goalies we have won't come close to what Miller did last year and that's just how Murray planned it.

As for Sabres fans having a vested interest in the Islanders season, it's only common sense that they do...if it was the other way around wouldn't you? Imagine how the Brown's fans will be watching the Bills season this year knowing that they could be getting a top 3 pick from us...I don't blame them one bit.

Vukota, I know you didn't imply everything I said but I answered other comments in one message

I get that defenseman are at a premium these days in the nhl but why does everyone think the price would be astronomical? Many considered amac a top four and we got a second and a fourth. Now we all know amac is a piece of junk but he seemed to be perceived around the nhl as being at worst a top 4. Not saying this to be a douche but where does everyone get the ridiculous prcies for top 4's. From d man getting signed to absurd contracts?
I dont think hawk fans saying what theyd like for oduya or boston fans valuing boychuck is a good reference for what wed actually have to pay.
- Cptmjl

I think you answered your own question...Amac, a fringe 4th defenseman, cost a 2nd and a 4th as a 2 month rental. Getting a young/in-his-prime guy like a Gudbranson or a Marc Staal or a Bogosian or a Josi or a Spurgeon would cost significantly more, especially if they are locked up long-term or will still be RFAs after their current deals expire.

Basically the way I see it is there are literally no teams that are actively looking to ship out a bonafide top 4 defenseman unless there is something wrong (overpaid, looking to trade a left-shooting defenseman for a right-shooting defenseman like the MDZ/Klein trade, etc.) so any defenseman you guys would actually want would take an "offer they can't refuse".

thats my point. A-Mac cost a second and fourth. Someone that you might actually want to fill out your top four would cost more than that. I'm not saying its going to cost de Haan and a second, but its going to be more than a 2 and a 4. I just don't see the point of trading one of our top prospects or young players for a d-man to "fill out our top four" if that guy is only signed for one year.
- Jethro09

I agree with not trading a top prospect. My point is im not too sure its going to cost that for a team desperate to get under the cap? We are not the only team dealing from a position of weakness.

I agree with not trading a top prospect. My point is im not too sure its going to cost that for a team desperate to get under the cap? We are not the only team dealing from a position of weakness.
- Cptmjl

There aren't many teams over the cap. Only Chicago and Boston and I think both those teams would find other ways to get under the cap before they trade a core member like Hjarlmarsson or Boychuk.

I think you answered your own question...Amac, a fringe 4th defenseman, cost a 2nd and a 4th as a 2 month rental. Getting a young/in-his-prime guy like a Gudbranson or a Marc Staal or a Bogosian or a Josi or a Spurgeon would cost significantly more, especially if they are locked up long-term or will still be RFAs after their current deals expire.

Basically the way I see it is there are literally no teams that are actively looking to ship out a bonafide top 4 defenseman unless there is something wrong (overpaid, looking to trade a left-shooting defenseman for a right-shooting defenseman like the MDZ/Klein trade, etc.) so any defenseman you guys would actually want would take an "offer they can't refuse".
- rangerdanger94

If you read my post you'd realize yours was a bit redundant. I stated that he wasnt perceived as a fringe top four. Also the hawks and bruins are in a position where they have to get below the cap and have a loaded back end. They have to shed salary. They may figure another way to do it but getting a low salaried player back is a priority. Doesnt neccesarily have to be a top end prospect nor should it be.

There aren't many teams over the cap. Only Chicago and Boston and I think both those teams would find other ways to get under the cap before they trade a core member like Hjarlmarsson or Boychuk.
- rangerdanger94

Which are the two teams I was referring too.

If you read my post you'd realize yours was a bit redundant. I stated that he wasnt perceived as a fringe top four. Also the hawks and bruins are in a position where they have to get below the cap and have a loaded back end. They have to shed salary. They may figure another way to do it but getting a low salaried player back is a priority. Doesnt neccesarily have to be a top end prospect nor should it be.
- Cptmjl

Whatever his perception was, he still fetched a 2nd and a 4th as a pending UFA rental. You guys sound like you want a young guy that's 23 or 24, will be with you guys long term, will be able to make an immediate impact (play 20+ mins a night and shut down 1st and 2nd lines consistently). Amac is like...the polar opposite and yes I know his perception was that he was good but again, just a 2 month rental at the time of the trade.

Which are the two teams I was referring too.
- Cptmjl

Boston actually isn't even over the cap. Capgeek still has Savard's $4M on the books so once he goes on LTIR, they will be under. Boychuk provides too much value for them to move. He fits their system perfectly and is pretty cheap, plus I'm not sure if you guys would want him since he's a pending UFA.

As for Chicago, Roszival, Oduya, and Leddy are the obvious choices. A guy like Rozzy or Oduya would help stabilize your back end but they are both pending UFAs and aren't the impact guys you really want. Leddy isn't exactly a shutdown guy but would be a nice addition...probably wouldn't cost a prospect either since Chicago would just want a cheaper defenseman that can play now to take his spot in the lineup.

Why not just buy out Josh Bailey...it's a wasted roster slot. Nothing more needs to be said.
- bhockey47

And not get back the third round pick he's worth in a trade? People would be calling for Snow's head. Again.

Whatever his perception was, he still fetched a 2nd and a 4th as a pending UFA rental. You guys sound like you want a young guy that's 23 or 24, will be with you guys long term, will be able to make an immediate impact (play 20+ mins a night and shut down 1st and 2nd lines consistently). Amac is like...the polar opposite and yes I know his perception was that he was good but again, just a 2 month rental at the time of the trade.


Boston actually isn't even over the cap. Capgeek still has Savard's $4M on the books so once he goes on LTIR, they will be under. Boychuk provides too much value for them to move. He fits their system perfectly and is pretty cheap, plus I'm not sure if you guys would want him since he's a pending UFA.

As for Chicago, Roszival, Oduya, and Leddy are the obvious choices. A guy like Rozzy or Oduya would help stabilize your back end but they are both pending UFAs and aren't the impact guys you really want. Leddy isn't exactly a shutdown guy but would be a nice addition...probably wouldn't cost a prospect either since Chicago would just want a cheaper defenseman that can play now to take his spot in the lineup.
- rangerdanger94

They still have to sign Krug & Smith, who are major parts to there roster..
Plus Roszival is not worth the $$$ when he's declining.....

They still have to sign Krug & Smith, who are major parts to there roster..
Plus Roszival is not worth the $$$ when he's declining.....
- Ur Not Me

Savard on IR gives them about $3M to re-sign Krug and Smith which should be enough. Boston has all the leverage and realistically could get both to sign for $1.25M if they wait it out.

Savard on IR gives them about $3M to re-sign Krug and Smith which should be enough. Boston has all the leverage and realistically could get both to sign for $1.25M if they wait it out.
- rangerdanger94

I get that most think that those players have no leverage, in the NHL they don't but Krug getting offers from KHL for more $$$ would hurt Bostons D if he left.
Same could go w/Smith.

These kids produced and deserve more than league minimum and we both know that. That's why they haven't signed yet or this wouldn't be an issue for them....

I think you answered your own question...Amac, a fringe 4th defenseman, cost a 2nd and a 4th as a 2 month rental. Getting a young/in-his-prime guy like a Gudbranson or a Marc Staal or a Bogosian or a Josi or a Spurgeon would cost significantly more, especially if they are locked up long-term or will still be RFAs after their current deals expire.

Basically the way I see it is there are literally no teams that are actively looking to ship out a bonafide top 4 defenseman unless there is something wrong (overpaid, looking to trade a left-shooting defenseman for a right-shooting defenseman like the MDZ/Klein trade, etc.) so any defenseman you guys would actually want would take an "offer they can't refuse".
- rangerdanger94

I'd be shocked if any other team had offered anywhere near as much as philly did for amac. They have a history of overvaluing our defensemen.

streit
amac
gervais

just as examples.

I'd be shocked if any other team had offered anywhere near as much as philly did for amac. They have a history of overvaluing our defensemen.

streit
amac
gervais

just as examples.
- Isles_since_6

Don't 4get Carkner....

Whatever his perception was, he still fetched a 2nd and a 4th as a pending UFA rental. You guys sound like you want a young guy that's 23 or 24, will be with you guys long term, will be able to make an immediate impact (play 20+ mins a night and shut down 1st and 2nd lines consistently). Amac is like...the polar opposite and yes I know his perception was that he was good but again, just a 2 month rental at the time of the trade.


Boston actually isn't even over the cap. Capgeek still has Savard's $4M on the books so once he goes on LTIR, they will be under. Boychuk provides too much value for them to move. He fits their system perfectly and is pretty cheap, plus I'm not sure if you guys would want him since he's a pending UFA.

As for Chicago, Roszival, Oduya, and Leddy are the obvious choices. A guy like Rozzy or Oduya would help stabilize your back end but they are both pending UFAs and aren't the impact guys you really want. Leddy isn't exactly a shutdown guy but would be a nice addition...probably wouldn't cost a prospect either since Chicago would just want a cheaper defenseman that can play now to take his spot in the lineup.
- rangerdanger94

not true at all. we're looking for a vet with some gas left in the tank. 32-33 signed for 1-2 years is fine by me. I don't expect him to play 22-25 minutes a night, but if he can play 18-20 minutes against respectable competition that allows the rest of our defense to play reasonable minutes as well

I get that most think that those players have no leverage, in the NHL they don't but Krug getting offers from KHL for more $$$ would hurt Bostons D if he left.
Same could go w/Smith.

These kids produced and deserve more than league minimum and we both know that. That's why they haven't signed yet or this wouldn't be an issue for them....
- Ur Not Me

True but if Krug really cared about the money that much he would've signed in the KHL already. Even if Boston would up their offer, their highest offer is probably still less than half what the KHL is offering. The Rangers have offered John Moore like $800k for 2 years. Pretty sure that's a pay cut if anything and you know what? Moore has no choice but to sign it eventually. It's basically a formality for guys like Moore, Krug, and Smith at the moment.

Boston could realistically pony up close to $2M each for Smith and Krug anyway; once you remove Savard's $4M off the books, they have about $3.2M left. This is what Kevan Miller on the books as well for $800k bringing their total defensemen to 7 not including Krug. If they send Miller down, they have $4M with 6 defensemen and Krug left to sign. Give Krug and Smith $1.75M each and call it a day.

I'd be shocked if any other team had offered anywhere near as much as philly did for amac. They have a history of overvaluing our defensemen.

streit
amac
gervais

just as examples.
- Isles_since_6

This too...I think Holmgren has a history of being impatient and willing to overpay to get what he wants quickly.

First, I didn't say Halak wasn't good, I stated he played on strong defensive teams and if you took the time to check it out you would agree with me. Your own fans have said the Islanders gave up to many scoring chances so it goes without saying if your defense doesn't tighten up things won't change in that respect. I would expect De Haan will improve over his rookie year and if Reinhart makes it he'll help for sure but he will make the mistakes that come with being a rookie D-man in the NHL.

It's no difference then with the Sabres..Ristolainen got his feet wet last year 34 games and if he sticks this year he's still going to make some rookie mistakes...it's a given but when all is said and done he's going to be a stud for years to come much like De haan and Reinhart for you guys.
I don't see the Sabres being much better then last year for one reason and that's in net. Without Miller last year this team would have been a bigger embarrassment then they were and the 2 goalies we have won't come close to what Miller did last year and that's just how Murray planned it.

As for Sabres fans having a vested interest in the Islanders season, it's only common sense that they do...if it was the other way around wouldn't you? Imagine how the Brown's fans will be watching the Bills season this year knowing that they could be getting a top 3 pick from us...I don't blame them one bit.

Vukota, I know you didn't imply everything I said but I answered other comments in one message
- Leninthebuff

Big difference between having a vested interest and trolling day in and day out. Not directed at you but at a large chunk of idiot sabres fans on this site.

not true at all. we're looking for a vet with some gas left in the tank. 32-33 signed for 1-2 years is fine by me. I don't expect him to play 22-25 minutes a night, but if he can play 18-20 minutes against respectable competition that allows the rest of our defense to play reasonable minutes as well
- Isles_since_6

It's a good stopgap solution while your kids get the seasoning they need but I just don't think there's many contenders willing to ship a steady veteran off like that unless they're receiving a player that can play today and take their spot in the lineup.

I think a good trade target for you guys would be Tim Erixon. This is a guy that was NHL ready last season but has been blocked by Columbus' depth on the blueline. He could step in and play top 4 minutes right away and likely wouldn't cost a gem. Columbus is always looking for offense so maybe a guy like Lee could make it work.

Don't 4get Carkner....
- Ur Not Me

I can't wait til we trade him to philly.

True but if Krug really cared about the money that much he would've signed in the KHL already. Even if Boston would up their offer, their highest offer is probably still less than half what the KHL is offering. The Rangers have offered John Moore like $800k for 2 years. Pretty sure that's a pay cut if anything and you know what? Moore has no choice but to sign it eventually. It's basically a formality for guys like Moore, Krug, and Smith at the moment.

Boston could realistically pony up close to $2M each for Smith and Krug anyway; once you remove Savard's $4M off the books, they have about $3.2M left. This is what Kevan Miller on the books as well for $800k bringing their total defensemen to 7 not including Krug. If they send Miller down, they have $4M with 6 defensemen and Krug left to sign. Give Krug and Smith $1.75M each and call it a day.


This too...I think Holmgren has a history of being impatient and willing to overpay to get what he wants quickly.
- rangerdanger94

Besides trying to resign players to raises, U also need some sort of cap relief bc of injuries/call-ups. All that factors in the cap. Boston doesn't need much cap room but just enough where a player has to be possibly moved. I think the odd player out could be McQuaid.

It's a good stopgap solution while your kids get the seasoning they need but I just don't think there's many contenders willing to ship a steady veteran off like that unless they're receiving a player that can play today and take their spot in the lineup.

I think a good trade target for you guys would be Tim Erixon. This is a guy that was NHL ready last season but has been blocked by Columbus' depth on the blueline. He could step in and play top 4 minutes right away and likely wouldn't cost a gem. Columbus is always looking for offense so maybe a guy like Lee could make it work.
- rangerdanger94

if there were a lot of targets this would likely be done already. There's really two at the moment - Boychuk and Oduya. Both are on the last year of their deals and both teams need cap relief. I imagine both would prefer to maximize any return and very likely most teams don't want to give up much knowing the hawks and bruins situation. It'll come down to camp.

worst case we have the following:

hamonic, dehaan, visnovsky, hickey, as our top four.

czuczman, reinhart, donovan, mayfield, brennan all could potentially win jobs out of camp.

pokka, pulock, pelach all could come up for short stints if they look ready and are needed.

it's not a good defense, no question, but it does have a heck of a lot of very good defensive prospects, young, large and some decent mobility.

It could work out that reinhart, donovan and czuczman all look ready in camp and could all play well this year. It could work out that none are ready. The reason we want another vet defenseman is because that's a gamble. It could pay off, it could flop.

One to two years from now, defense could well become a strength for us. It's a major risk, and I expect something will happen during camp.

Big difference between having a vested interest and trolling day in and day out. Not directed at you but at a large chunk of idiot sabres fans on this site.
- Vukota

Most of "them" aren't even regulars in the Sabres threads necessarily. Like most fanbases on here, there are those outliers who just like to stir crap up and get a woodrow from it...

It's a good stopgap solution while your kids get the seasoning they need but I just don't think there's many contenders willing to ship a steady veteran off like that unless they're receiving a player that can play today and take their spot in the lineup.

I think a good trade target for you guys would be Tim Erixon. This is a guy that was NHL ready last season but has been blocked by Columbus' depth on the blueline. He could step in and play top 4 minutes right away and likely wouldn't cost a gem. Columbus is always looking for offense so maybe a guy like Lee could make it work.
- rangerdanger94

decent player but not the right choice, to a lesser extent he's a Leddy light. I could see Isles bring in veteran D as camp invites ie: Morris, Tallinder, Pitkinen, etc

if there were a lot of targets this would likely be done already. There's really two at the moment - Boychuk and Oduya. Both are on the last year of their deals and both teams need cap relief. I imagine both would prefer to maximize any return and very likely most teams don't want to give up much knowing the hawks and bruins situation. It'll come down to camp.

worst case we have the following:

hamonic, dehaan, visnovsky, hickey, as our top four.

czuczman, reinhart, donovan, mayfield, brennan all could potentially win jobs out of camp.

pokka, pulock, pelach all could come up for short stints if they look ready and are needed.

it's not a good defense, no question, but it does have a heck of a lot of very good defensive prospects, young, large and some decent mobility.

It could work out that reinhart, donovan and czuczman all look ready in camp and could all play well this year. It could work out that none are ready. The reason we want another vet defenseman is because that's a gamble. It could pay off, it could flop.

One to two years from now, defense could well become a strength for us. It's a major risk, and I expect something will happen during camp.
- Isles_since_6

Just me, but I think Czuczman could be the guy bc of age, college exp, and really looked good last year. But camp will dictate that.

Just me, but I think Czuczman could be the guy bc of age, college exp, and really looked good last year. But camp will dictate that.
- Ur Not Me

My money is on donovan. I honestly think this kid finally gets a decent shot this year and if he was paired with anyone other than carkner I think he'd look a heck of a lot better. Also would help if they gave him a real shot, instead of sending him down for one mistake when the team as a whole was screwing up all over the ice all game, every game.

If no trades are made, I see our defense breaking camp like this:

hamonic dehaan
visnovsky hickey
strait donovan

carkner

likely keeping 2 extra forwards unless they show some stones and send some one way contracts down in conacher/cmac/boulton

carkner should really be one of the nhl contracts sent down to bridgeport though. He was absolutely awful for the entirety of last season. It's too difficult to dress a defenseman as our fighter, and leaves the other 5 playing too many minutes.


***for the record, I'm not suggesting this is a good defense. It's a patchwork one with the potential for a ton of mistakes, injuries and could cost us a shot at the playoffs, but it's what I expect we'll see if reinhart isn't ready and if no trade is made.

Whatever his perception was, he still fetched a 2nd and a 4th as a pending UFA rental. You guys sound like you want a young guy that's 23 or 24, will be with you guys long term, will be able to make an immediate impact (play 20+ mins a night and shut down 1st and 2nd lines consistently). Amac is like...the polar opposite and yes I know his perception was that he was good but again, just a 2 month rental at the time of the trade.


Boston actually isn't even over the cap. Capgeek still has Savard's $4M on the books so once he goes on LTIR, they will be under. Boychuk provides too much value for them to move. He fits their system perfectly and is pretty cheap, plus I'm not sure if you guys would want him since he's a pending UFA.

As for Chicago, Roszival, Oduya, and Leddy are the obvious choices. A guy like Rozzy or Oduya would help stabilize your back end but they are both pending UFAs and aren't the impact guys you really want. Leddy isn't exactly a shutdown guy but would be a nice addition...probably wouldn't cost a prospect either since Chicago would just want a cheaper defenseman that can play now to take his spot in the lineup.
- rangerdanger94

Oduya is a young 23 yr old defenseman? Thats who most of this convo is based on. However it works it works but someone better talk to Chiarelli and tell him hes under the cap and he doesnt have to dump anyone bcs I've read a few things where he was eluding to it. He better check out cap geek.btn having to resign pending ufas theyll have cap issues.