I had no idea he won the Vezina!
- 1979AD

Sure, don't you remember, that was the year Reimer won the Conn Smythe......or maybe not, to steal a line, that was the year Reimer blew more leads than Elton John at a gay bonspiel.

Sure, don't you remember, that was the year Reimer won the Conn Smythe......or maybe not, to steal a line, that was the year Reimer blew more leads than Elton John at a gay bonspiel.
- WillieAA

Funny

you're clearly not getting what i'm saying, and maybe it's just me who's not communicating my point clearly.
first and foremost, i'm not comparing ryan to toews in a "he's as good as toews way"......i think toews is the best overall player in the league, and worth his new contract. i think ryan is worth about 7.5.
my post was in response to the person who said, well he just scored at a 55pt pace the last 2 years, so he's not worth 7.5. I was implying that you can't just look at his point totals, and determine his worth.
- sensarmy_11

The crazy thing is that I agree with virtually every point that you've made - including the notion that Ryan will be paid primarily on the basis of his goal scoring numbers, not his total point numbers. That said, Ryan could be held back a bit versus the likes of Perry and Kessel in that his overall point totals actually are a fair bit lower, and it's not irrelevant that Ryan actually has scored at just a 56pts/season pace over the past 3 years. Plus, that number is his actual scoring pace - not just raw point totals like you seemed to be trying to use for Toews, which was really the basis of my objection.

The more troubling element for Ryan, however, is that his actual goal scoring has been in a comparable state of decline - after scoring at a 36G/season pace over the 2008/09-2010/11 stretch in Anaheim, his average scoring pace has dropped by nearly 10G/season in the 3 seasons since. In fact, MacArthur's production last season was surprisingly close to what Ryan's average production has been over the past 3 seasons (24G/55Pts vs. 27G/56Pts). I'm certainly not trying to suggest that Ryan will be signing for $4.6M/yr, or that he's incapable of returning to 30G/season form - but it will be interesting to see how all of that translates to the contract numbers being discussed.

The crazy thing is that I agree with virtually every point that you've made - including the notion that Ryan will be paid primarily on the basis of his goal scoring numbers, not his total point numbers. That said, Ryan could be held back a bit versus the likes of Perry and Kessel in that his overall point totals actually are a fair bit lower, and it's not irrelevant that Ryan actually has scored at just a 56pts/season pace over the past 3 years. Plus, that number is his actual scoring pace - not just raw point totals like you seemed to be trying to use for Toews, which was really the basis of my objection.

The more troubling element for Ryan, however, is that his actual goal scoring has been in a comparable state of decline - in fact, MacArthur's production last season was surprisingly close to what Ryan's average production has been over the past 3 seasons (24G/55Pts vs. 27G/56Pts). I'm certainly not trying to suggest that Ryan will be signing for $4.6M/yr, but it will be interesting to see how all of that translates to the contract numbers being discussed.
- khawk

i think the big difference between mac and ryan is that for mac, we're talking about career highs in a season where everything went right (for him personally) and ryan who experienced career lows (not counting the half season) where everything seemed to go wrong.

i get what you're saying, but if both guys play a full and healthy season, i doubt macarthur produces nearly as much as ryan......atleast in terms of goal scoring.

i think the big difference between mac and ryan is that for mac, we're talking about career highs in a season where everything went right (for him personally) and ryan who experienced career lows (not counting the half season) where everything seemed to go wrong.

i get what you're saying, but if both guys play a full and healthy season, i doubt macarthur produces nearly as much as ryan......atleast in terms of goal scoring.
- sensarmy_11

Are you saying MacArthur won't repeat last years numbers?

Are you saying MacArthur won't repeat last years numbers?
- ClarksonDavid

not at all, i'm saying that ryan's numbers (if he remains healthy) will improve and be better than macarthur.

i expect Mac to put up 20-25 goals, and 45-50pts..........if he does, he's worht his new deal.

i expect ryan to put up 30+ goals, and 60ish points.

Geezus - there's an article on Sportsnet cmparing Kessel to Kane and saying their isn't much difference between the two - unless you are counting winning and turning a franchise around and exciting the entire NHL fanbase and discounting leadership, playoff scoring.

I should of finished that article on how Joe Sakic and Alexi Yashin were essentially the same player - you know, Stanley Cups and winning and leading your team in the playoffs - the little things

Geezus - there's an article on Sportsnet cmparing Kessel to Kane and saying their isn't much difference between the two - unless you are counting winning and turning a franchise around and exciting the entire NHL fanbase and discounting leadership, playoff scoring.

I should of finished that article on how Joe Sakic and Alexi Yashin were essentially the same player - you know, Stanley Cups and winning and leading your team in the playoffs - the little things
- tuna99

I know I agree with you, it's too bad Kessel plays on a poop team and isn't recognized for how good he really is. Good point

I know I agree with you, it's too bad Kessel plays on a poop team and isn't recognized for how good he really is. Good point
- ClarksonDavid

I agree with you. I think right now, you won't find many people who would argue that kessel is better than kane, but i think that has a TON to do with the teams they play for.

if kessel played for the hawks, and kane for the leafs............it would be a very different conversation IMO.

I agree with you. I think right now, you won't find many people who would argue that kessel is better than kane, but i think that has a TON to do with the teams they play for.

if kessel played for the hawks, and kane for the leafs............it would be a very different conversation IMO.
- sensarmy_11

Yeah theirs a lot of players that aren't recognized because of their teams. How much points a year would Karlsson get playing with the hawks?

Yeah theirs a lot of players that aren't recognized because of their teams. How much points a year would Karlsson get playing with the hawks?
- ClarksonDavid

how much better overall would he be if seabrook was his defensive partner.

i think lots of players are defined as much, if not more, by the teams they play on (or players they play with) as they are by their actual ability.

Yeah theirs a lot of players that aren't recognized because of their teams. How much points a year would Karlsson get playing with the hawks?
- ClarksonDavid

I think it's still easy to distinguish who is a good hockey player and who is just a point getter or flashy - Nash in CLB, Luongo in Florida, Doan in Phoenix, Iginla in Calgary - these are still considered elite players.

Guys who are on playoff teams but are dogs - Semin in Washington, Heatley in SJ/Ott, Kessel in Tor - there's a reason that these guys are never game changers because they don't have the ability to lead or turn games around - they can score, but that's all they do, they don't turn or carry momentum, inspire their teams they are just Johnny's on the Spot who pot goals and then float aorund the ice until their next scoring chance.

I think it's still easy to distinguish who is a good hockey player and who is just a point getter or flashy - Nash in CLB, Luongo in Florida, Doan in Phoenix, Iginla in Calgary - these are still considered elite players.

Guys who are on playoff teams but are dogs - Semin in Washington, Heatley in SJ/Ott, Kessel in Tor - there's a reason that these guys are never game changers because they don't have the ability to lead or turn games around - they can score, but that's all they do, they don't turn or carry momentum, inspire their teams they are just Johnny's on the Spot who pot goals and then float aorund the ice until their next scoring chance.
- tuna99

I literally disagree with all of this.

other than semin being a floater, and iginla being elite in calgary..........none of this is accurate IMO.

I literally disagree with all of this.

other than semin being a floater, and iginla being elite in calgary..........none of this is accurate IMO.
- sensarmy_11

Good, then I know it makes sense

I think it's still easy to distinguish who is a good hockey player and who is just a point getter or flashy - Nash in CLB, Luongo in Florida, Doan in Phoenix, Iginla in Calgary - these are still considered elite players.

Guys who are on playoff teams but are dogs - Semin in Washington, Heatley in SJ/Ott, Kessel in Tor - there's a reason that these guys are never game changers because they don't have the ability to lead or turn games around - they can score, but that's all they do, they don't turn or carry momentum, inspire their teams they are just Johnny's on the Spot who pot goals and then float aorund the ice until their next scoring chance.
- tuna99

Please explain how nash or doan were elite players........and please explain to me how guys like kessel and heatley (in ottawa) didn't have the ability to "turn games around" when they were/are both among the league leaders in goals and points. last time i checked, scoring goals was a pretty big factor in changing momentum and turning games around, and kessel and heatley (at the time) were/are among the best in the entire league at doing that.

it's pretty clear that this is just a thinly veiled attempt to hate on kessel and heatley, and you just threw semin in there to try and make it seem less obvious.

i read a lot on here, but post only rarely, and a pretty large majority of what you write seems to be based more on homerism and "doom and gloom" feelings, and much less on logic and reason.

Good, then I know it makes sense
- tuna99

Your post makes no sense at all, sensarmy_11 was absolutely right. Iginla was elite, Semin is a floater, and everything else is incorrect.