Deep down, he knew that
- kneughter

He just wants to get angry

where's that GardinerExpress fella? seems like a sharp one.
- DoubleDown

For (frank)sakes don't say his name.

I think he meant low ball in the arbitration not long term deal. Which he clearly says in his post.
- Yeti1181

so he can't understand how a tense negotiation came down to the wire? ok then.
and really, do you think Montreal trashed him in that hearing given that he signed for 8 years a day later?
and anyone who refers to Montreal's offer as a lowball doesn't understand the arbitration process or simple economics.

so he can't understand how a tense negotiation came down to the wire? ok then.
and really, do you think Montreal trashed him in that hearing given that he signed for 8 years a day later?
and anyone who refers to Montreal's offer as a lowball doesn't understand the arbitration process or simple economics.
- DoubleDown

I understand the arbitration case as well as economics and it was low ball offer especially after coming off the bridge contract he signed.

The way the arbitration cases work is you are arguing why your numbers work by pointing out the flaws of the player, you don't go in talking them up.

No but I don't think he said he doesn't understand what he said he doesn't understand why Montreal would come with such a low number comparing him to other elite d men.

$9m

Good for him, hopefully he can play the part.

I understand the arbitration case as well as economics and it was low ball offer especially after coming off the bridge contract he signed.

The way the arbitration cases work is you are arguing why your numbers work by pointing out the flaws of the player, you don't go in talking them up.

No but I don't think he said he doesn't understand what he said he doesn't understand why Montreal would come with such a low number comparing him to other elite d men.
- Yeti1181

And there is the error with every poster who says mtl low balled pk
During this process he is only compared to other rfa dmen

And there is the error with every poster who says mtl low balled pk
During this process he is only compared to other rfa dmen
- MTL1

How many RFA have a Norris and are one the leaders on their teams?

And there is the error with every poster who says mtl low balled pk
During this process he is only compared to other rfa dmen
- MTL1

You mean other RFA dmen like Doughty (6.7m salary second to last RFA year) or Pietrangelo (6.5m salary second to last RFA year) or Karlsson (6.5m salary second to last RFA year)?

Saying he was worth 5.25m was a lowball offer. Denying it is just silly, everyone knows he is worth more than that.

How many RFA have a Norris and are one the leaders on their teams?
- Yeti1181

Meh, Leafs were in third at the 1/2 way point who knows if Subban wins the Norris if they played 82

I think he's over paid by lots, but I think they all are

Lucky sons of female doges

You mean other RFA dmen like Doughty (6.7m salary second to last RFA year) or Pietrangelo (6.5m salary second to last RFA year) or Karlsson (6.5m salary second to last RFA year)?

Saying he was worth 5.25m was a lowball offer. Denying it is just silly, everyone knows he is worth more than that.
- Antilles

No, he means like Keith Yandle, who made 5.25 last year and had the same amount of points as Subban.

You mean other RFA dmen like Doughty (6.7m salary second to last RFA year) or Pietrangelo (6.5m salary second to last RFA year) or Karlsson (6.5m salary second to last RFA year)?

Saying he was worth 5.25m was a lowball offer. Denying it is just silly, everyone knows he is worth more than that.
- Antilles

1 year deal offer on rfa dman

In the end he received more than any of your examples

No, he means like Keith Yandle, who made 5.25 last year and had the same amount of points as Subban.
- DiedonSunday

So... your saying your GM actually believes Subban's value is the same as Yandle, but just gave him a 9m AAV contract?

Either Bergevin is an idiot for giving him the 8 year deal, or the 5.25m was a lowball offer. Can't have it both ways.

You mean other RFA dmen like Doughty (6.7m salary second to last RFA year) or Pietrangelo (6.5m salary second to last RFA year) or Karlsson (6.5m salary second to last RFA year)?

Saying he was worth 5.25m was a lowball offer. Denying it is just silly, everyone knows he is worth more than that.
- Antilles

Was that 5.25 for 8 years?

So... your saying your GM actually believes Subban's value is the same as Yandle, but just gave him a 9m AAV contract?

Either Bergevin is an idiot for giving him the 8 year deal, or the 5.25m was a lowball offer. Can't have it both ways.
- Antilles

So... your saying your GM actually believes Subban's value is the same as Yandle, but just gave him a 9m AAV contract?

Either Bergevin is an idiot for giving him the 8 year deal, or the 5.25m was a lowball offer. Can't have it both ways.
- Antilles

I'm not having it both ways because the processes are different. An Arbitration hearing has both sides come in with the salary of a comparable for (in this case a 1-year deal). It behooves management to offer the lowest comparable rfa contract (I.e. Yandle) to get the best number possible on the 1-year deal. Just as it behooves the player to pick the highest rfa contract (I.e. Shea Weber). This is the crux of the Arbitration process and why teams and players try to avoid it.

It would make no sense for Bergevin to offer a good deal in arbitration because it will raise the price that P.K. Would have received in that one year deal. In fact please name a time where a G.M. Offered a deal in arbitration that wasn't below what the player wanted. It never happens.

The 8-year deal is different because the Habs were paying for 6 years of UFA status as well as the 2-years of RFA status. I felt that the mistake in letting him get to arbitration only happens if the one year deal took effect because Subban has essentially all the power going forward (I.e. offer sheets and being one year closer to UFA status). Since this never happened the mistake was never made. I wish people could realize that hockey is a business and it is managements duty to keep costs low and the players prerogative to get as much as they feel they are worth. Obviously both sides disagreed for a long time in this case hence it took a long time to reach an agreement. This doesn't mean Subban is Greedy or Bergevin insulted him with his offer it is a byproduct of a collectively bargained process. So quit the hyperbole because it doesn't do anything but make you look obtuse

I'm not having it both ways because the processes are different. An Arbitration hearing has both sides come in with the salary of a comparable for (in this case a 1-year deal). It behooves management to offer the lowest comparable rfa contract (I.e. Yandle) to get the best number possible on the 1-year deal. Just as it behooves the player to pick the highest rfa contract (I.e. Shea Weber). This is the crux of the Arbitration process and why teams and players try to avoid it.

It would make no sense for Bergevin to offer a good deal in arbitration because it will raise the price that P.K. Would have received in that one year deal. In fact please name a time where a G.M. Offered a deal in arbitration that wasn't below what the player wanted. It never happens.

The 8-year deal is different because the Habs were paying for 6 years of UFA status as well as the 2-years of RFA status. I felt that the mistake in letting him get to arbitration only happens if the one year deal took effect because Subban has essentially all the power going forward (I.e. offer sheets and being one year closer to UFA status). Since this never happened the mistake was never made. I wish people could realize that hockey is a business and it is managements duty to keep costs low and the players prerogative to get as much as they feel they are worth. Obviously both sides disagreed for a long time in this case hence it took a long time to reach an agreement. This doesn't mean Subban is Greedy or Bergevin insulted him with his offer it is a byproduct of a collectively bargained process. So quit the hyperbole because it doesn't do anything but make you look obtuse
- DiedonSunday

Well said

hey guys, do you think Bergevin lowballed Subban? Inquiring minds would like to know.

So... your saying your GM actually believes Subban's value is the same as Yandle, but just gave him a 9m AAV contract?

Either Bergevin is an idiot for giving him the 8 year deal, or the 5.25m was a lowball offer. Can't have it both ways.
- Antilles

Sure man. You win.

Eklund: A Simple Question: Whose Side Are You On?
- Eklund

9 mil per! He's now the most over paid black guy in hockey who doesnt play defense and didnt crack the starting olympic roster!
I could see 6.5-7.0 mil not 9 !

He's worth every penny they gave him. Most habs fans i've talked to are relieved the they signed him and don't care how much it will cost. Yeah, it's alot of money, but the more we think back to what he's done in his short playing career, we don't come out of that thinking it was too much, we think that he's worth it.

He's worth every penny they gave him. Most habs fans i've talked to are relieved the they signed him and don't care how much it will cost. Yeah, it's alot of money, but the more we think back to what he's done in his short playing career, we don't come out of that thinking it was too much, we think that he's worth it.
- peter2679

I personally would have loved to see him at 8-8.5 for the same term, but I am not at all disappointed by 9AAV. In two years even if he stays at his current level it will be a good deal as the cap will go up some. If he continues to improve which is more likely it will be an absolute bargain.

I'm not having it both ways because the processes are different. An Arbitration hearing has both sides come in with the salary of a comparable for (in this case a 1-year deal). It behooves management to offer the lowest comparable rfa contract (I.e. Yandle) to get the best number possible on the 1-year deal. Just as it behooves the player to pick the highest rfa contract (I.e. Shea Weber). This is the crux of the Arbitration process and why teams and players try to avoid it.

It would make no sense for Bergevin to offer a good deal in arbitration because it will raise the price that P.K. Would have received in that one year deal. In fact please name a time where a G.M. Offered a deal in arbitration that wasn't below what the player wanted. It never happens.

The 8-year deal is different because the Habs were paying for 6 years of UFA status as well as the 2-years of RFA status. I felt that the mistake in letting him get to arbitration only happens if the one year deal took effect because Subban has essentially all the power going forward (I.e. offer sheets and being one year closer to UFA status). Since this never happened the mistake was never made. I wish people could realize that hockey is a business and it is managements duty to keep costs low and the players prerogative to get as much as they feel they are worth. Obviously both sides disagreed for a long time in this case hence it took a long time to reach an agreement. This doesn't mean Subban is Greedy or Bergevin insulted him with his offer it is a byproduct of a collectively bargained process. So quit the hyperbole because it doesn't do anything but make you look obtuse
- DiedonSunday

You need to read the CBA. Arbitration has the teams come in with an offer of what they think the players value is. Not the lowest number they think they can get away with in order to get a good deal. Comparables are used to back up their claim of a players value, nothing more.

Bergevin's job is to keep costs as low as possible while keeping players happy. You seem to be forgetting about the second half of that while insisting Bergevin did what he needed to for the first half. Offering far less than a player is worth is not a way to do that. It only accomplishes half of the goal. It doesn't keep players happy.

Bergevin lowballed Subban. It could have cost him big. It didn't. But justifying risking insulting a player because you personally view the offer as a negotiating ploy, but the rules the offer was made under say it has to actually be what the team believes he is worth; and that the team had to argue to Subban's face it was all he was worth, is just being obtuse.

You need to read the CBA. Arbitration has the teams come in with an offer of what they think the players value is. Not the lowest number they think they can get away with in order to get a good deal. Comparables are used to back up their claim of a players value, nothing more.

Bergevin's job is to keep costs as low as possible while keeping players happy. You seem to be forgetting about the second half of that while insisting Bergevin did what he needed to for the first half. Offering far less than a player is worth is not a way to do that. It only accomplishes half of the goal. It doesn't keep players happy.

Bergevin lowballed Subban. It could have cost him big. It didn't. But justifying risking insulting a player because you personally view the offer as a negotiating ploy, but the rules the offer was made under say it has to actually be what the team believes he is worth; and that the team had to argue to Subban's face it was all he was worth, is just being obtuse.
- Antilles

I see what you are saying. It was a risky move, I see his logic behind it though. My main concern was the hyperbole though. I don't believe calling him an idiot for signing him to 8 years after the arbitration was 5.25 was idiotic. It was the result of a plan to try and keep Subbans number as low as possible. Did it work? I have no idea. I don't know how much Subban originally wanted or how much cheaper he could have been. Only around 10 ppl know that stuff. I believe Bergehin took a calculated risk, ask me in 8 years if it worked.

I do believe too much is made of the players feelings. In my opinion most players want 2 things most of all 1st-Getting Paid for their work 2nd-Winning. You can interchange those depending on the player but its the baseline IMHO. By negotiating in a business like manner with these guys, I believe you are treating them as exactly what they are, grown men. You may be right that Subban felt insulted by the whole thing, but I would counter that nothing that Subban has said or done in the last 2 years indicate that to be true. I apologize if you were insulted by the word obtuse. I hope you were not offended as I intentionally tried to pick a word that didn't have those overtones.

I do not mean to ramble on Antilles but I also believe Keith Yandle is a very respectable comparable to P.K. Subban. Very talented offensive defenceman whose defence is questioned. Top point producer on a team that went to a conference final. Both Olypians. If you compare their stats they are very similar as well. Now, I think Keith Yandle has an excellent team friendly deal but he is a very comparable player to Subban. All that being said, I believe Subban will end up being a much better player in the long run but I think I only saw Yandle play 2 times at most. I just don't see how this situation could have resulted much differently than it did.

Very simply, I think Bergevin took a risk. Calculated, cold, yes. How much, if any, cap space did he really cost himself though? I will qualify this all by saying that I believe Bergevin had to fold after it went to arbitration, otherwise he would have been painted into a corner. Do I agree with every move he makes? Nope, I'm looking at you Doug Murray. Do I see his reasoning on his moves? Yeah, I think I do. The man has a very businesslike manner on how he approaches player management. I believe that the whole Subban situation will pay dividends next year when Gallagher, Galchenyuk, Tinordi, Beaulieau, and Bournival are all RFA's and they have to sign new deals. He can point at Subban, Price, and Pacioretty as guys who had to pay their dues before getting the big payday. It allows flexibility in my opinion, it also keeps players viable "on the cheap" as it were, for longer. Will it work? I don't know, but it's not like we have a lot of information on the subject, so for now we are really seeing something a little different than most organizations do it.