I also dont want to keep scuds as a vet presence but could see management doing so. Whats the point of making proposals that are completely lopsided and will not happen? wheres the debate there? sutter for talbot straight up was actually a pretty good idea... talbot is cheaper and slots in nice in the bottom six, colorodo has the space to take a 3-3.5 million sutter without it hurting them to much.
- ChrisMS

Well because I don't think its lopsided. Go look at Colorado's current prospect pool that isn't in the NHL. Its really not very strong at all. The guy we would get back would probably not even be on the same level as Dia or Zlobin who are already not that good of prospects.

Trading for Talbot straight up would leave me with the same taste in my mouth I had after the Neal trade. It would make the team better, but I wouldn't be able to shake the feeling that there was a better package out there.

I think Bortuzzo is a younger version of Orpik... he played defense just as well, a tad less physical, but much faster. I don't see why he wasn't moved up instead of obtaining Scuds in the first place.
- Guile

scuds was coming off a decent, not great, but decent year as a top 4 guy on a cup winning team. several teams bid for him so it wasn't like the pens were the only ones overestimating him. he was brought in to play with letang on the TOP pairing. yikes. but bortuzzo wasn't ready then, or even really now, for the role they brought scuds in to play originally

scuds was coming off a decent, not great, but decent year as a top 4 guy on a cup winning team. several teams bid for him so it wasn't like the pens were the only ones overestimating him. he was brought in to play with letang on the TOP pairing. yikes. but bortuzzo wasn't ready then, or even really now, for the role they brought scuds in to play originally
- ChrisMS

Nope, I am not going to push Bort into the 3-4 pairing with Erhoff... But in the 5-6, with Maatta going with Ehrhoff once hes back? Yep, I absolutely believe Bortuzzo is a bottom pair ready player, and Scuds is a waste of space.

We fell victim to the overpriced Cup winning talent... something I'd say we are typically VERY good at avoiding.

Well because I don't think its lopsided. Go look at Colorado's current prospect pool that isn't in the NHL. Its really not very strong at all. The guy we would get back would probably not even be on the same level as Dia or Zlobin who are already not that good of prospects.

Trading for Talbot straight up would leave me with the same taste in my mouth I had after the Neal trade. It would make the team better, but I wouldn't be able to shake the feeling that there was a better package out there.
- Victoro311

more to it goes into a trade proposal. pens would be moving salary and colorado would know it. they, by taking sutter, are helping penguins on that level. in a cap era that becomes part of the deal. talbot(with his vet leadership and 1.5 cap hit) + cap space to the pens. sutter to the avs. not even sure this isnt still a rip off for the avs

huh... i was thinking a young nhl ready prospect... maybe could get you a guy who is a couple years away... but nobody that really could slot in this year.
- ChrisMS

That would be ideal if they are close to NHL ready. But I would still do it even if hes a year or two away as long as hes got top 6 pedigree/upside. Sutter isn't really needed on this team and he doesn't even really need 'replaced' with a player coming back in a trade so why not get that good prospect in the system and save the cap space.

Nope, I am not going to push Bort into the 3-4 pairing with Erhoff... But in the 5-6, with Maatta going with Ehrhoff once hes back? Yep, I absolutely believe Bortuzzo is a bottom pair ready player, and Scuds is a waste of space.

We fell victim to the overpriced Cup winning talent... something I'd say we are typically VERY good at avoiding.
- Guile

unless scuds really plays his way off the top six I doubt, for right or wrong, that he gets sat with his 3.75 salary over bortz. while I dount pens really have a healthy top 7 to often this year and it wont be much of an issue, there is gonna be some distaste left if peoples mouths watching bortz or despres sit in favor of scuds

What about Sutter+Dumoulin (or Pouliot) for Wheeler, Ladd?

That would be ideal if they are close to NHL ready. But I would still do it even if hes a year or two away as long as hes got top 6 pedigree/upside. Sutter isn't really needed on this team and he doesn't even really need 'replaced' with a player coming back in a trade so why not get that good prospect in the system and save the cap space.
- YouMeAndDupuis9

reading that I still dont see sutter getting that return. top 6 young players on elc are more valuable than sutter. sutter and a pick or prospect (decent to good ones) might that young potential top 6 player. they are just to valuable to give up for a third line center, even a good third line center.

more to it goes into a trade proposal. pens would be moving salary and colorado would know it. they, by taking sutter, are helping penguins on that level. in a cap era that becomes part of the deal. talbot(with his vet leadership and 1.5 cap hit) + cap space to the pens. sutter to the avs. not even sure this isnt still a rip off for the avs
- ChrisMS

Talbot was just traded for Downie straight up. Weird talking about Talbot, Downie, and Sutter all having generally the same value.

unless scuds really plays his way off the top six I doubt, for right or wrong, that he gets sat with his 3.75 salary over bortz. while I dount pens really have a healthy top 7 to often this year and it wont be much of an issue, there is gonna be some distaste left if peoples mouths watching bortz or despres sit in favor of scuds
- ChrisMS

Oh I absolutely agree, you just cannot sit that much money on the bench. You either buy them out, or find a way to dump them... but no coach or GM is allowed to keep that much money off the ice.

I just don't like it.

What about Sutter+Dumoulin (or Pouliot) for Wheeler, Ladd?
- Barnaby36

sutter and pouliot might get one or the other... but that could hurt the pens if tanger doesnt straighten out.

Oh I absolutely agree, you just cannot sit that much money on the bench. You either buy them out, or find a way to dump them... but no coach or GM is allowed to keep that much money off the ice.

I just don't like it.
- Guile

and it would have to be a desperate situation for mario and ron to wipe their bums with those millions and buy him out and also to retain money in a deal, which is a must unless the pens pay someone in pick or prospect, like calgary, to take him. not a good situation.

Talbot was just traded for Downie straight up. Weird talking about Talbot, Downie, and Sutter all having generally the same value.
- YouMeAndDupuis9

didn't think about that

yeah.. being up against the cap really diminishes player values. more so than I would of thought

and it would have to be a desperate situation for mario and ron to wipe their bums with those millions and buy him out and also to retain money in a deal, which is a must unless the pens pay someone in pick or prospect, like calgary, to take him. not a good situation.
- ChrisMS

I don't consider it desperate... lets say in the time when Maatta isn't ready to come back, they find that Despres really is ready for the NHL, Bortuzzo is good, and hell, lets say another one is ready.

That would put them at at least three NHL ready prospects, and 1 overpriced bottom pairing veteran. If that happens, I could see Scuds being dumped, bought out... or maybe retaining the 750K part of his deal to not have to give a higher draft pick with him to dump him away.

That way, we get 3 mil back, and replace it with an entry level deal on the rookie... and got money to have fun with.

Talbot was just traded for Downie straight up. Weird talking about Talbot, Downie, and Sutter all having generally the same value.
- YouMeAndDupuis9

Oh yeah. I forgot that's why my Flyers friends hate Downie so much.

When Bennett gets hurt Spaling could very likely see top six minutes, and second power play time. In order to improve your team your going to have to overpay someone.

I don't consider it desperate... lets say in the time when Maatta isn't ready to come back, they find that Despres really is ready for the NHL, Bortuzzo is good, and hell, lets say another one is ready.

That would put them at at least three NHL ready prospects, and 1 overpriced bottom pairing veteran. If that happens, I could see Scuds being dumped, bought out... or maybe retaining the 750K part of his deal to not have to give a higher draft pick with him to dump him away.

That way, we get 3 mil back, and replace it with an entry level deal on the rookie... and got money to have fun with.
- Guile

as a gm that makes sense. as the owner who is flushing their money... not so much. unless mario and ron saw scuds as keeping them from a long playoff run and those millions, i dont see buyout as an option for them... despite as a fan wanting to spend their money as i want

I don't think we need to add Talbot to the bottom 6. It has been addressed. The moves to make are top 6 spot to fill and salary dump (Martin+ Scuds), and figure out Sutter.

sutter can go. he is not worth more than $4M/year and not for 4 years. I would prefer Goc take up those minues and the $ be spent elsewhere.

Also, any truth to the rumor about scuderi thinking about surgery since his injury has not healed properly?

I like the idea of dumping Sutter and Martin for Grabner or Nino.

as a gm that makes sense. as the owner who is flushing their money... not so much. unless mario and ron saw scuds as keeping them from a long playoff run and those millions, i dont see buyout as an option for them... despite as a fan wanting to spend their money as i want
- ChrisMS

Well... lets see if old man Rutherford can apart some wisdom on Mario

I like the idea of dumping Sutter and Martin for Grabner or Nino.
- sammy87

As a package....maybe I'd do Grabner. I'm afraid he'd be very similar to Gibbons next to Sid. Hands just dont catch up with his feet.

I think Martin alone could get Nino. If we are packaging them both, or even add a first to that....I think we could aim higher.. like Marleau, Pavelski, Coyle, Tatar, etc.

As a package....maybe I'd do Grabner. I'm afraid he'd be very similar to Gibbons next to Sid. Hands just dont catch up with his feet.

I think Martin alone could get Nino. If we are packaging them both, or even add a first to that....I think we could aim higher.. like Marleau, Pavelski, Coyle, Tatar, etc.
- YouMeAndDupuis9

1st, I hate the love affair with Gibbons.

Grabner, played well for Austria and I think he has way more skill set than Gibbons and most likely Dupuis. He plays a tough game too. Same goes for Nino.

Problem with the names above, I think you are overpaying for the name and the cap hit isn't worth it IMO. Tatar, would probably command Martin+1st.

as a gm that makes sense. as the owner who is flushing their money... not so much. unless mario and ron saw scuds as keeping them from a long playoff run and those millions, i dont see buyout as an option for them... despite as a fan wanting to spend their money as i want
- ChrisMS

As a GM or owner I choose Sutter over Scuds. And that's what it might come down to.

That being said, I'm talking about salary-retained trade here, not buyout.

ChrisMS, what's the highest salary retention in a Scuderi trade you'd be okay with?