And let me just add this:

Outside of Chicago, outside of Hawk fans or Hawk-paid media flacks, there is only one credible source I have ever heard (much less any fans of other teams) who puts Crawford in the top tier of NHL goalies. And that was Kevin Weekes. Who, by the way, was a pretty big fan of Cristobal Huet too. I know because he told me. Just for the sake of perspective.
- John Jaeckel

No one is arguing that Crawford belongs in the top tier of goalies. He belongs in the 8 to 12 range. He is better than most people think.

Rask before Price? Give me a break.
- Scabeh

He doesn't kill penalties!

And in the Cup finals in 2013 his numbers were slightly better than Rask. And if you compare their numbers for the cup runs, Crawford's are better than Niemi's. and not by a little. Its just my opinion. I would take Crawford over Niemi every time. And the truth of the matter is Crawford actually beat out Niemi in 2010 but was sent down because the Hawks needed the cap space in the difference in salary between the 2.
- Elbows15

No. The team put that spin on the story when they lost Niemi. Niemi outplayed Crawford that preseason AND the prior year in Rockford.

Let me add: Stanley said of Niemi and Hjalmarsson "they're not going anywhere." Fact.

Then because he miscalculated Toews' Stanley Cup bonus (or someone did), he lost Nemo to an offer sheet (essentially—I don't recall whether the actually got an offer sheet or not). THEN, the story came out, well Corey beat him out in 2010. Crawford did not beat Niemi out. Was the contract thing a concern? Sure. But Niemi was the better of the two in that preseason and the prior year.

So why, if Crawford was better anyway, make a public statement that you're not going to lose the guy that everybody was quite comfortable with as your #1? Because he WAS #1.

No one is arguing that Crawford belongs in the top tier of goalies. He belongs in the 8 to 12 range. He is better than most people think.
- Elbows15

No, I think most people put him 10-15, myself included. Which all things considered makes him a good to very good goalie.

No. The team put that spin on the story when they lost Niemi. Niemi outplayed Crawford that preseason AND the prior year in Rockford.
- John Jaeckel

IF you think I form my opinions based upon what the team says, I can't help you here.

And go look up the number JJ. Looks like the were about even with maybe a slight edge to Crawford based upon SV%

Just in SV% Niemi .910 Crawford .920
GAA Niemi2.43 Crawford 2.53

wins Niemi 18 Crawford 22

No. The team put that spin on the story when they lost Niemi. Niemi outplayed Crawford that preseason AND the prior year in Rockford.
- John Jaeckel

Agreed. In fact, the Hawks carried 3 goalies during the Premiere Series in Helsinki. Neimi edged out Crawford as Huet's back-up to start the season during that trip.

That's how I remember it, if I'm not mistaken.

No. The team put that spin on the story when they lost Niemi. Niemi outplayed Crawford that preseason AND the prior year in Rockford.

Let me add: Stanley said of Niemi and Hjalmarsson "they're not going anywhere." Fact.

Then because he miscalculated Toews' Stanley Cup bonus (or someone did), he lost Nemo to an offer sheet (essentially—I don't recall whether the actually got an offer sheet or not). THEN, the story came out, well Corey beat him out in 2010. Crawford did not beat Niemi out. Was the contract thing a concern? Sure. But Niemi was the better of the two in that preseason and the prior year.

So why, if Crawford was better anyway, make a public statement that you're not going to lose the guy that everybody was quite comfortable with as your #1? Because he WAS #1.
- John Jaeckel

It was the offer sheet to Hjalmarsson that threw things off. I think they walked away from the arbitration salary that was awarded to Niemi. IIRC. Could be wrong there.

Ron Hextall - if for no other reason than the entertainment factor - but the dude was pretty solid. Some players get forgotten in the Oiler era of dominance.

Mikka Kiprusoff - great goalie stuck on a bad team.

Billy Smith - also a legend.

All time I wouldn't have Hasek so high. Hasek was great, but I wouldn't have considered him much better than say Mike Richter or Ed Belfour or Curtis Joseph. Hasek and Richter were both reactionary goalies with extremely fast reflexes. Hasek was a little more creative though.

And did you really call Brodeur a Butterfly Goalie? He is the EPITOME of a standup goalie. I don't think Brodeur has gone down in a butterfly once in his career lol. He uses traditional pad stacking and standup techniques. And even though he played in front of a team that gave up fewer than 20 shots on goal on average, I still would consider him in the top 3.

And Lundqvist, though his career is far from over, I believe should be considered within the top 10 of all time. No goalie has ever performed as consistently as he has over their first 9 NHL seasons. He's played in behind some seriously offensively underachieving rosters too, yet still racking up more than 30 wins every single season. Not to mention when he played behind a Rangers team that was developing from within during the Renney years when the Defense was good but very very young.

Top 10 goalies now are obviously

1) Michael Leighton
2) Brian Boucher
3) Devan Dubnyk
4) Jason Labarbra
5) Anders Lindback
6) Vesa Toskala
7) Ondrej Pavalec
8) Nikalas Backstrom
9) Dan Ellis
10) Jacob Markstrom

I thought Crawford was ok in the regular and basically very good in the playoffs this past year.

Going forward, the money committed to the core is going to force compromises on supporting cast and/or looking for lightning in a bottle a lot.

I remember the 2009 WCF, when Detroit was able to take huge advantage of the Hawks' third pairing (Walker and Barker), basically winning the series on an OT goal against that pair, when it looked like if the hawks pulled out the road win, they might turn the series around.

Oduya is what he is, but he, also, has improved tremendously the last couple of years, especially in his own end. If he has to be dealt, it will not be an automatic replacing him. Not by a long shot.
- John Jaeckel

This has been my belief for weeks: just like 2011 and 2012, relying on young unprovens and older skaters looking for one more ride - and why it's important to put all their eggs in the basket for this coming year, because the year after (2015-16) and after that are going to be catch-up years.

Can they dump Versteeg and Roszival? Possibly the best option to keep a strong group for this year.

He doesn't kill penalties!
- l3ig_l2ecl

You're a day late and much more than a dollar short.

No, I think most people put him 10-15, myself included. Which all things considered makes him a good to very good goalie.
- John Jaeckel

Who can win Cups behind a very good Chicago defense - all skaters included.

Agreed. In fact, the Hawks carried 3 goalies during the Premiere Series in Helsinki. Neimi edged out Crawford as Huet's back-up to start the season during that trip.

That's how I remember it, if I'm not mistaken.
- EKolb13

I thought Niemi was subject to waivers but Crawford was not and that was the major factor in determining who stayed with the big club.

Regardless, it doesn't matter if Crawford is in the top 10 or rated 11 - 15, he's good enough to win a Cup with. I'm hoping last year was a bit of an off year with the new goalie coach and Crawford returns to his 2013 (shorten season) form.

Agreed. In fact, the Hawks carried 3 goalies during the Premiere Series in Helsinki. Neimi edged out Crawford as Huet's back-up to start the season during that trip.

That's how I remember it, if I'm not mistaken.
- EKolb13

I remember it like Nester - either cap space or (I think I remember) Niemi having to clear waivers, while Crawford could be sent down.

EDIT to add: ...and I remember it like DK above.

It was the offer sheet to Hjalmarsson that threw things off. I think they walked away from the arbitration salary that was awarded to Niemi. IIRC. Could be wrong there.
- Elbows15

Yes to this - they didn't think Wilson (or anyone else) would put in an offer sheet on Hjalmarsson - and Wilson (according to conventional wisdom) was trying to force Chicago's hand on one of them: Wilson would get either Hjalmarsson or Niemi.

It worked.

Ron Hextall - if for no other reason than the entertainment factor - but the dude was pretty solid. Some players get forgotten in the Oiler era of dominance.

Mikka Kiprusoff - great goalie stuck on a bad team.

Billy Smith - also a legend.
- Return of the Roar

If you like goalies who made a consistent habit of trying to break opponents legs at the crease with his stick.

He was vicious.

But - four in a row.

Take a stab at the top 10 Dmen? Considering Defense and Offense together, not just points...

1. Nik Lidstrom
2. Bobby Orr
3. Paul Coffey
4. Denis Potvin
5. Ray Bourque
6. Chris Chelios
7. Scott Stevens
8. Larry Robinson
9. Al MacInnis
10. Brian Leetch

Top 10 goalies now are obviously

1) Michael Leighton
2) Brian Boucher
3) Devan Dubnyk
4) Jason Labarbra
5) Anders Lindback
6) Vesa Toskala
7) Ondrej Pavalec
8) Nikalas Backstrom
9) Dan Ellis
10) Jacob Markstrom


- xShoot4WarAmpsx

He will always be number one in my books.

He's had some great games and series in the playoffs, and some bad ones. More good than bad. He's generally speaking not a guy you can count on to steal games. IMO, when he's on, he's very good and in that tier right below the top 5 guys. When he's not, he can be somewhere between average and pretty bad. To me, he is def in the top 15, with or without a great defense in front of him.
- John Jaeckel

Crow is definitely NOT top ten. Good picks.

Take a stab at the top 10 Dmen? Considering Defense and Offense together, not just points...

1. Nik Lidstrom
2. Bobby Orr
3. Paul Coffey
4. Denis Potvin
5. Ray Bourque
6. Chris Chelios
7. Scott Stevens
8. Larry Robinson
9. Al MacInnis
10. Brian Leetch
- xcheckmajor

Not to rehash this topic, but on defense I believe there's Orr, the Grand Canyon, and then the rest. No disrespect to the others, more that Orr was that good.

It was a rhetorical question.

Sorry for wasting your time. A lot of people are just crazy like you say for putting Roy number one and Brodeur down the list a ways.

Sorry, the quality of the teams and defenses in front of different goalies has a bearing on their numbers and therefore their records. See: Osgood, C.

But you're also right. Pointless.
- John Jaeckel

Don't be sorry John, is all good..

I'd say Hasek, Brodeur, and then Roy. Stats don't lie and Roy played on some fantastic teams. I don't remember him winning Canada any gold medals....Did he even get us one??

You had Brodeur at five, and that's just crazy talk.

Osgood isn't on anyone's top ten lists of all time.....And look at the teams he played on. He should have been one of the greatest of all time by using logic...

He will always be number one in my books.
- Elbows15

I bet he is. I am surprised Chicago didn't give him a cup ring for his help in the finals

I thought Niemi was subject to waivers but Crawford was not and that was the major factor in determining who stayed with the big club.

Regardless, it doesn't matter if Crawford is in the top 10 or rated 11 - 15, he's good enough to win a Cup with. I'm hoping last year was a bit of an off year with the new goalie coach and Crawford returns to his 2013 (shorten season) form.
- DarthKane

Both players were subject to waivers at that time. Neimi slightly outplayed Crawford for that roster spot in '09-'10.

Not to rehash this topic, but on defense I believe there's Orr, the Grand Canyon, and then the rest. No disrespect to the others, more that Orr was that good.
- andru2797

The problem with calling Bobby Orr #1 is, he only played for 12 years in the NHL. Only 6 of those years was he basically Gretzky playing on defense. Very short career. And he was basically the greatest skater in the game so he could have been playing offense or defense or whatever, he just soared all over the ice. Not enough structure in his game and longevity of consistency. Thats why I chose Lidstrom over Orr as the greatest defenseman ever.