Of the ones I have seen:

Terry Sawchuk
Glenn Hall
Patrick Roy
Marty Brodeur
Jacques Plante
Dominik Hasek
Ken Dryden
Vladislav Tretiak
Henrik Lundqvist
Johnny Bower

corey crawford is not in the top10???
- madduxboy

no. He is in the bottom ten.

No one is arguing that Crawford belongs in the top tier of goalies. He belongs in the 8 to 12 range. He is better than most people think.
- Elbows15

No, he isn't.

I thought Crawford was actually for stretches of the 2014 playoffs as good as he's ever been.
- John Jaeckel

and for stretches he was as bad as he's ever been

no. He is in the bottom ten.
- fvineze

You would know all about being on the bottom.

You would know all about being on the bottom.
- Ogilthorpe2

No, he isn't.
- fvineze

Its been well established that you can't find your own ass with two hands and a map so your opinion means squat Canuck boy.

niemi and corey schneider over miller is an outrage!

They basically had to let him to to free agency as I recall now, right?

But the point is, Bowman had proclaimed: "they're not going anywhere." THAT is accurate. Why, because Nemo was the #1 in their minds. And you're right, they did have some doubts about Crawford.

All that said, did Crawford eventually rise to the occasion. By round 1 of the 2011 playoffs, yes, some fits and starts after. And some stretches of great play when it's counted. Listen, I'm not sure he's ever been better than 2011 first round and 2014 first and second round. And I am basically in agreement with Elbows where he ranks.

I will say this—and this I DO have from sources—this organization, especially Stan Bowman— has been very patient with Crawford, and Bowman is loyal to him.
- John Jaeckel

Yeah, they let Nemo go to FA after the Arb award came down at $2.75M.

When SB opened his mouth about neither Nemo/CC were going anywhere, he was totally expecting to sign the two of them combined for something around $4-4.5M.

Then came the Hammer OS, like it was a signal from Wilson in SJ to SB, saying, "Go ahead and match it, I dare you". Plus SB had the re-entry thing hanging over his head with Nemo that he didn't have with CC.

The irony in the whole thing money wise was the combined Turco/CC cap hit in 10-11 was $2.1M. The 'Hawks arb offer to Nemo? $2.0M. Nemo wanted $3.5M. Arbitrator picked the middle, $2.75M.

What the OS match did do to SB (Wilson standing by and laughing a bit IMO) was force the 'Hawks to effectively pay $2M more for his #4D man (Soupy was still with the 'Hawks in 10-11) and both goalies; adding to the "capocalypse" we lived through.

I find it a bit surprising CC stayed in the organization as long as he did. They were patient with him, big time. And he wasn't arrogant, as to force his way out to go elsewhere. I find CC to be a rather grounded and very humble person. Not saying Nemo wasn't. He wanted to get paid. Fine. I get it. Makes sense. Besides, he practically won the WCF himself.

Huet, as bad as he was for the Hawks, was actually really good in the gimmick. Back in 2010, I used to hope Q would replace Niemi with Huet once OT ended. I think an ice cold Huet would have been better than Niemi in the shootout most nights.
- Ogilthorpe2

Yep, but the larger problem for the Hawks in the gimmick is Q's musical chairs approach to the shooters and inexplicably stupid calls on the 3rd and 4th shooters night after night

Yeah, they let Nemo go to FA after the Arb award came down at $2.75M.

When SB opened his mouth about neither Nemo/CC were going anywhere, he was totally expecting to sign the two of them combined for something around $4-4.5M.

Then came the Hammer OS, like it was a signal from Wilson in SJ to SB, saying, "Go ahead and match it, I dare you". Plus SB had the re-entry thing hanging over his head with Nemo that he didn't have with CC.

The irony in the whole thing money wise was the combined Turco/CC cap hit in 10-11 was $2.1M. The 'Hawks arb offer to Nemo? $2.0M. Nemo wanted $3.5M. Arbitrator picked the middle, $2.75M.

What the OS match did do to SB (Wilson standing by and laughing a bit IMO) was force the 'Hawks to effectively pay $2M more for his #4D man (Soupy was still with the 'Hawks in 10-11) and both goalies; adding to the "capocalypse" we lived through.

I find it a bit surprising CC stayed in the organization as long as he did. They were patient with him, big time. And he wasn't arrogant, as to force his way out to go elsewhere. I find CC to be a rather grounded and very humble person. Not saying Nemo wasn't. He wanted to get paid. Fine. I get it. Makes sense. Besides, he practically won the WCF himself.
- blackhawk24

Bill Zito had a LOT to do with that situation with Nemo. great post, BTW.

Elbows, I'll just say. You do like to repeat your mantra. CC is better, CC is better, CC is better.

I'll just leave you with this on this whole Niemi/CC debate:

This past year's numbers:

Niemi

39-17-7
.913 SV%
2.37 GAA
4 shutouts

Crawford

32-16-10
.917
2.50
2 shutouts


And we both know who has the slightly better team and the better defense in front of them. Further, Crawford saw about a shot per game less, and probably a lesser quality of shots because of the D in front of him.

So, I'll just say, the straight up numbers make for a compelling argument. And if you change their sweaters? I like the Niemi argument.

And just because:

CAREER

Niemi

159-77-33
2.35
.916
27 shutouts


Crawford

115-59-29
2.36
.914
10 shutouts

Crawford's played for marginally better teams, certainly the last two years

Yeah, but neither of them are top ten.

Both are in the 11 to 15 range imo.

How did it work out?
- Ogilthorpe2

The goalie switch team won and made the semifinals.

Elbows, I'll just say. You do like to repeat your mantra. CC is better, CC is better, CC is better.

I'll just leave you with this on this whole Niemi/CC debate:

This past year's numbers:

Niemi

39-17-7
.913 SV%
2.37 GAA
4 shutouts

Crawford

32-16-10
.917
2.50
2 shutouts


And we both know who has the slightly better team and the better defense in front of them. Further, Crawford saw about a shot per game less, and probably a lesser quality of shots because of the D in front of him.

So, I'll just say, the straight up numbers make for a compelling argument. And if you change their sweaters? I like the Niemi argument.
- John Jaeckel

When Cory is Crawford, as we've said before, he generally gives up the "Crawford Two", usually fairly early, Hawks are in the game, and Crawford shuts the opposition down for the rest of the game: Hawks win or get to OT (more than a league-average number of Blackhawk games get to OT).

Very few shut-outs, but very few 4/5/6 goals against disasters - Chicago is in every game.

If the Hawks are playing on all cylinders, that's good enough, regular season or play-offs.

And just because:

CAREER

Niemi

159-77-33
2.35
.916
27 shutouts


Crawford

115-59-29
2.36
.914
10 shutouts

Crawford's played for marginally better teams, certainly the last two years
- John Jaeckel

Not to defend or agree with Elbows because I frankly don't have a real opinion on the debate but as a long suffering Blues fan, the only stat I care about is the

PLAYOFFS

Crawford

32-23
2.21
.920
3 shutouts

Niemi

35-26
2.74
.907
2 shutouts

Crawford has a better winning percentage, GAA and SO when it matters. He also has more points and has gotten deeper into the playoffs more times. I realize the team is a factor but it's not like the Sharks have been an 8 seed when making the playoffs.

Not to defend or agree with Elbows because I frankly don't have a real opinion on the debate but as a long suffering Blues fan, the only stat I care about is the

PLAYOFFS

Crawford

32-23
2.21
.920
3 shutouts

Niemi

35-26
2.74
.907
2 shutouts

Crawford has a better winning percentage, GAA and SO when it matters. He also has more points and has gotten deeper into the playoffs more times. I realize the team is a factor but it's not like the Sharks have been an 8 seed when making the playoffs.
- stljam

Yep, fair points, but I DO think the teams matter. You can't have it both ways. If Jumbo Joe is a choker and the Sharks D is suspect—as everyone always says— and they say that here a lot—then there's a big part of your answer. Personally, I don't put it on the Sharks' forwards as much as their D, which was "pylonesque" much of Niemi's tenure there. I also think the Sharks have had a chemistry issue, leak of leadership 9where I do name jumbo and others) the last few years that has hurt them into playoffs, lack of team speed too, until recently. Is that Niemi's fault. No.

And it's why I say, switch the sweaters. Niemi, as a ROOKIE, was awfully good for the Hawks in the playoffs in 2010, in spite of the revisionist history getting set forth here these days.

Yeah, but neither of them are top ten.

Both are in the 11 to 15 range imo.
- carcus

And with a really good team defence in front, you don't need a perennial Vezina candidate.

Which leads me back a bit to CC's $6M cap hit for 6 years. Sure the backend of that deal will be fine w.r.t. the anticipated salary cap. But for 14-15 and to a lesser extent, 15-16, the $6M cap hit for a guy in the #11-#15 range, it's a touch-much.

"Blackhawks GM Stan Bowman claimed it was partly a business decision to keep Antti Niemi as the backup goalie instead of Corey Crawford. .
- John Jaeckel

That was it.

The organization made sure they used their draft pick and farm system to develop.

I think that season Niemi surprised the league with such good pads down low and a decent positional game.
Everyone here bad mouthed CC after he was ordained the starter as someone whose up top game was lacking, when in fact Niemi still has a major weakness there.
He's not getting traded so Alex S plays, but I think the Sharks expected growth and improvement.

Not here to debate it, but Corey has one me over big time, with his trench play...the guy isn't lucky, he isn't just positional strong and technique steady...he is getting better as he gets older.



Moving on to something I read pages back on Halek:

I really think the biggest thing is he didn't want to enter D.C. with yet another
'duel" goalie-tandem situation.

Whether you think he is the real deal, he wants a true chance to play at lengths without having to sit an "rest."
Like cornerbacks, many goalies want to get that next challenge, and Halek may be feeling better thinking he can do that on the Island.

Not to defend or agree with Elbows because I frankly don't have a real opinion on the debate but as a long suffering Blues fan, the only stat I care about is the

PLAYOFFS

Crawford

32-23
2.21
.920
3 shutouts

Niemi

35-26
2.74
.907
2 shutouts

Crawford has a better winning percentage, GAA and SO when it matters. He also has more points and has gotten deeper into the playoffs more times. I realize the team is a factor but it's not like the Sharks have been an 8 seed when making the playoffs.
- stljam

Can't view these stats in a vacuum. Take either CC or Nemo - each in their relative level of experience - in each of the last 5 post seasons and put them on either the Sharks or the 'Hawks and you will see notably better performance for either guy on the 'Hawks. It's a system the 'Hawks employ that makes it easier to play the [goaltender] position.

If a goalie thinks that every SOG or in fact, every shot taken could be the make or break in a game or a series, he will not be playing his best game. Just like in baseball when you hear a hitter is squeezing the sawdust out of the bat or a pitcher trying to throw the ball through the catcher, when under pressure, so too will a goalie not play his position effectively. And that includes everything from crease positioning to playing the puck behind the net.

When the 'Hawks swept SJ in the 2010 WCF, I saw a comfortable and relaxed Nemo where-as Nabokov wasn't sure half the time. He wasn't comfortable in the crease for a good portion of the series. Ladd's goal was a testament to that.

And with a really good team defence in front, you don't need a perennial Vezina candidate.

Which leads me back a bit to CC's $6M cap hit for 6 years. Sure the backend of that deal will be fine w.r.t. the anticipated salary cap. But for 14-15 and to a lesser extent, 15-16, the $6M cap hit for a guy in the #11-#15 range, it's a touch-much.
- blackhawk24

Agreed.

Even as someone who believes he should have made the team in 2010, and as someone who believes he's as good or better than Nemo, I don't like that contract. Didn't understand the rush to make that deal either.

Agreed.

So why do you like Raanta so much?


All the criticisms you level at him, and from what I've seen, he reminds me a fair amount of a guy who IMO is also underrated, Jaroslav Halak. Who can be dominant and carry a team.

Raanta might not ever be as good, but there is something there to work with. Agreed he has flaws, also gives up a lot of rebounds, but he makes some pretty amazing point blank saves.
- John Jaeckel

At the price Raanta will be fine. He was critical of his own play, and is happy not to be wallowing in the AHL. Maybe a new goalie coach helps his game.

And with a really good team defence in front, you don't need a perennial Vezina candidate.

Which leads me back a bit to CC's $6M cap hit for 6 years. Sure the backend of that deal will be fine w.r.t. the anticipated salary cap. But for 14-15 and to a lesser extent, 15-16, the $6M cap hit for a guy in the #11-#15 range, it's a touch-much.
- blackhawk24

Great post.

That was it.

The organization made sure they used their draft pick and farm system to develop.

I think that season Niemi surprised the league with such good pads down low and a decent positional game.
Everyone here bad mouthed CC after he was ordained the starter as someone whose up top game was lacking, when in fact Niemi still has a major weakness there.
He's not getting traded so Alex S plays, but I think the Sharks expected growth and improvement.

Not here to debate it, but Corey has one me over big time, with his trench play...the guy isn't lucky, he isn't just positional strong and technique steady...he is getting better as he gets older.



Moving on to something I read pages back on Halek:

I really think the biggest thing is he didn't want to enter D.C. with yet another
'duel" goalie-tandem situation.

Whether you think he is the real deal, he wants a true chance to play at lengths without having to sit an "rest."
Like cornerbacks, many goalies want to get that next challenge, and Halek may be feeling better thinking he can do that on the Island.
- wiz1901

Great post.