Jesus, I am glad I have a charity golf event to work today.
- tangent_man

I pictured all of the anti-stat folk's heads exploding while reading this.

Mostly agree, with minor quibbles. I'd add Gags and drop JR, just because of team longevity. My list would go something like:

1.) Reggie the Rifle. If your nickname is "The Rifle", you get to be first.
2.) Timmy Kerr.
3.) Johnny Vermont
4.) 88
5.) Guffaw
6.) The Hawk
7.) Recchi - They even built that wrong footed wrist shot of his into video games.
8.) Barber
9.) Gagne
10.) Carter - I might need to shower after including him, but it's hard to ignore his talent.
- johndewar

I had Kerr first, because, when healthy, I just feel he was unstoppable. However Leach was a very close 2nd!

Jesus, I am glad I have a charity golf event to work today.
- tangent_man

If there is one thing I like about discussing analytics, its the way we all agree and never argue about it.

That would be your opinion. As you have made abundantly clear to everyone.

Jim Nill uses the same stats available to fans. He's said so in interviews. Hextall mentioned zone entries, which are available to fans. Certainly they use other numbers and tie it into video and use more in depth items than fans. Mainly because most fans have day jobs & families and lack the resources that NHL teams can employ.

That doesn't mean the available stats should be ignored. You have a bias, as you so often accuse others of, and it's tiresome.
- Jsaquella

If you read the article that Bill just linked to, it's pretty clear that Nill doesn't use all of the same stats available to fans. And also recent statements by Mike Babcock, and by Bob McKenzie also sheds light on how teams use analystics, especially Corsi. And it's just further supports that I had Corsi and how it should be used right. And was correct in bringing up it's flaws and questioning poor analysis using Corsi when looking at players such as Nick Grossmann.

And let's look at bias. It seems pretty clear from your initial posts, that instead of just wanting to discuss analytics, you want to discuss posters also. That's fine. I think failing to look at a stat and it's limitations and how it should be used, is where the bias is. And it's clear in a lot of instances in how it has been misused. What I've done is researched and looked into a stat such as Corsi, and understood it's limitations and why it's not a good stat for looking at individual players. That's not a bias, that's reality. And it's why NHL teams don't just blindly look at Corsi, and it's derivatives. Because at Mike Babcock said, it's important to get the numbers right.
And I really think you find it tiresome because the flaws in the premises you've given on some players have been exposed. And how Corsi can be misused, brought to light. And that can't be refuted.

As a final statement, I think that analytics are good and are very important. I think any team not using them, and futher advancing the information they have access to, are doing themselves a diservice. But like any information, it has to be good information. And the bad has to be weeded out from the good. To come to correct conclusions. If that's a bias, I guess I'm biased.

The thing that is most impressive about Jim Nill is his willingness to make big deals. He paid big prices for Tyler Seguin and now Spezza and both could have blown up in his face (Spezza could still). More and more, GM's are scared to make trades unless they are the clear winners. It is better to ride out their time making draft picks and signing 2nd tier free agents then to actual make a big hockey trade to seriously improve their team and take the chance that if it fails, they will have to defend themselves against the fans and media.

Say what you will about Holmgren and Burke, but at least they had the courage to attempt to significantly help their teams.
- psuhockey

That's where I am with this league today -- it's like some of these guys think that they're never going to get fired if they never make deals.

Everything you do in professional sports is fraught with risk. But doing nothing, in some cases, is just as bad as making a move that doesn't work out.

Yeah, even if they don't call it Corsi/Fenwick/PDO/etc, the methodology behind their proprietary analytics is probably very similar in nature, and I can almost guarantee that a good deal of it is somewhat inspired by the fan community.

And while teams recording non-traditional stats is nothing new, the method of analyzing and employing them is, hence we've seen guys like Eric T and Dubas get hired by NHL clubs recently.
- Tomahawk

The principle of Corsi is very sound. The issue is with the data collection. As I've said many times. If the false data can be removed as much as possible, the Corsi would be a great stat to use when looking at individual players. NHL teams have the resources to get the number right, or as right as possible. It's not about what they call it, it's how the data is collected.

And I agree with the last statement. The innovators know right way to analyze the data.

Yeah, he's a must read for me. He's really become a very good writer
- Jsaquella

I wouldn't even have known he was around if I never made it to HB; I really enjoy his stuff.

More importantly the right stats have to be used. I think it's pretty clear that teams aren't using all of the same stats that the fans have access to. And the the problem comes into play is when "stat heads" misuse stats and use them incorrectly. And we've seen plenty of examples of that in Flyers threads.
- MJL

you are so so right......

Sorry, I'm not going to debate you. It's monotonous, you have an amazing ability to argue semantics & cherry pick parts of an argument and honesty, I think it's pointless to bother.

It's why I generally ignore you, they way you generally ignore half of a post and lock onto one aspect of a discussion....and then flog it for 20 pages. I'm done playing along.
- Jsaquella

When dealing with an analytic such as Corsi, taking all of the factors including the false data is not arguing semantics. It's looking at every aspect of the stat. Wanting to ignore the flaws because then it would invalidate an argument, is what is pointless.

Jesus, I am glad I have a charity golf event to work today.
- tangent_man

It's a good day to waste on a golf course. It's beautiful here, like 70 degrees no clouds, low wind makes it feel great

I pictured all of the anti-stat folk's heads exploding while reading this.
- JFlyers00

I was thinking, "Well, it's been awhile since a 25-page streetfight broke out."

Jesus, I am glad I have a charity golf event to work today.
- tangent_man

had one monday with Darryl Sittler.....we had Aaron Downey in our group....golf swing worse then his slap shot...same form though...

I wouldn't even have known he was around if I never made it to HB; I really enjoy his stuff.
- AllInForFlyers

Yep. I'm glad he's reaching a wider audience now.

I had Kerr first, because, when healthy, I just feel he was unstoppable. However Leach was a very close 2nd!
- BiggE

I'm an unapologetic honk for those 80's Flyers teams, so I'll never say bad words about Tim Kerr....possibly the most underrated athlete in Philly in ANY sport.

That's where I am with this league today -- it's like some of these guys think that they're never going to get fired if they never make deals.

Everything you do in professional sports is fraught with risk. But doing nothing, in some cases, is just as bad as making a move that doesn't work out.
- AllInForFlyers

It's really amazing. Kevin Cheveldayoff has been a GM for 3 years and has yet to make a player for player deal at the NHL level

It's a good day to waste on a golf course. It's beautiful here, like 70 degrees no clouds, low wind makes it feel great
- Jsaquella

The weather this summer has been phenomenal.

/knock on wood

If you read the article that Bill just linked to, it's pretty clear that Nill doesn't use all of the same stats available to fans. And also recent statements by Mike Babcock, and by Bob McKenzie also sheds light on how teams use analystics, especially Corsi. And it's just further supports that I had Corsi and how it should be used right. And was correct in bringing up it's flaws and questioning poor analysis using Corsi when looking at players such as Nick Grossmann.

And let's look at bias. It seems pretty clear from your initial posts, that instead of just wanting to discuss analytics, you want to discuss posters also. That's fine. I think failing to look at a stat and it's limitations and how it should be used, is where the bias is. And it's clear in a lot of instances in how it has been misused. What I've done is researched and looked into a stat such as Corsi, and understood it's limitations and why it's not a good stat for looking at individual players. That's not a bias, that's reality. And it's why NHL teams don't just blindly look at Corsi, and it's derivatives. Because at Mike Babcock said, it's important to get the numbers right.
And I really think you find it tiresome because the flaws in the premises you've given on some players have been exposed. And how Corsi can be misused, brought to light. And that can't be refuted.

As a final statement, I think that analytics are good and are very important. I think any team not using them, and futher advancing the information they have access to, are doing themselves a diservice. But like any information, it has to be good information. And the bad has to be weeded out from the good. To come to correct conclusions. If that's a bias, I guess I'm biased.
- MJL

You sir, have a bad case of tunnel vision. He has admitted in the past that Corsi has its flaws and has to be used properly.

Player A sucks, Stat used to support that
That stat isn't valid
Yada yada yada
Play A is actually good with a separate cherry picked stat to support

Rinse and repeat.

As for the endless Grossmann debate, 9/10 people will probably agree that having L Schenn and Grossmann on the same defense isn't the most brilliant idea and I'm done there....

So, because I'm fairly certain not too many folks have any interest in arguing about advanced stats in late July, I was wondering what you guys thought about this:

If you were picking today, with the majority of offseason moves complete, who do you like in each conference to win those, and who do you like for the Stanley Cup?

Just your thoughts; I'm just curious.

I'm an unapologetic honk for those 80's Flyers teams, so I'll never say bad words about Tim Kerr....possibly the most underrated athlete in Philly in ANY sport.
- johndewar

Definitely underappreciated. Kerr was unstoppable when healthy

I'm an unapologetic honk for those 80's Flyers teams, so I'll never say bad words about Tim Kerr....possibly the most underrated athlete in Philly in ANY sport.
- johndewar

same here...loved the guy...tried to model my game after his...body and stick position were key.....and the fact he was built like an oak tree helped.

It's really amazing. Kevin Cheveldayoff has been a GM for 3 years and has yet to make a player for player deal at the NHL level
- Jsaquella

And you know the West is brutal, and you know that Winnipeg isn't the most desirable place for many free agents.

You have to do what Craig MacTavish has done -- you have to be aggressive with trades, even if they don't work. Winnipeg hasn't made the playoffs with the roster they have, in a horribly difficult conference.

What, exactly, is Chevaldayoff counting on changing, before he gets fired?

So, because I'm fairly certain not too many folks have any interest in arguing about advanced stats in late July, I was wondering what you guys thought about this:

If you were picking today, with the majority of offseason moves complete, who do you like in each conference to win those, and who do you like for the Stanley Cup?

Just your thoughts; I'm just curious.
- AllInForFlyers

I like LA again if they stay healthy. Tampa out of the East.

You sir, have a bad case of tunnel vision. He has admitted in the past that Corsi has its flaws and has to be used properly.

Player A sucks, Stat used to support that
That stat isn't valid
Yada yada yada
Play A is actually good with a separate cherry picked stat to support

Rinse and repeat.

As for the endless Grossmann debate, 9/10 people will probably agree that having L Schenn and Grossmann on the same defense isn't the most brilliant idea and I'm done there....
- JFlyers00

I don't have tunnel vision at all. If the flaws of Corsi were considered, then it wouldn't be used at all to rate individual players because of that flaw. And the scenario you present makes my point further. You can spin them to say anything you want them to say for the most part.

And as far as the last point is concerned. Discussing the mix of defenseman the Flyers employ, and how they fit together is a diferent discussion then if an individual player such as Grossmann is a good player or not.

So, because I'm fairly certain not too many folks have any interest in arguing about advanced stats in late July, I was wondering what you guys thought about this:

If you were picking today, with the majority of offseason moves complete, who do you like in each conference to win those, and who do you like for the Stanley Cup?

Just your thoughts; I'm just curious.
- AllInForFlyers

I think TB is an up and coming team in the East. And it's the same old same old in the West. LA and Chicago.