Since when is being a good penalty killer NOT an attribute for being best player?

It's a factor like everything else the player does on the ice.
- StLBravesFan

Your right it's an attribute.....it's not one that Crosby is incapable of doing. The fact Toews does more of it just means Chicago does not have other players to do it as effectively as Toews does....Pittsburgh do. Toews probably is better defensively than Crosby but the offensive side is so lop sided for Crosby it makes the argue meant for Toews or anyone else invalid

Since when is being a good penalty killer NOT an attribute for being best player?

It's a factor like everything else the player does on the ice.
- StLBravesFan

Rod Brind'amour put up 70+ points while being one of the best face-off men in the game and winning two consecutive Selke trophies.

He was a tremendous leader and brought home a Stanley Cup.

He was not, at any point, the best player in the league.

Crosby averages a 1.398 points per game pace. 114.7 points per season.

Toews averages .909 points per game. 74.5 points per season.

I like Toews, but COME ON. That's 40 (frank)ing points difference.
- BINGO!

Toews' line can literally go out against any and every line out there, produce, and be tough as nails to play against as well

Crosby has clearly shown he cannot. Crosby now struggles against shutdown lines because he is one dimensional and cant turn defense into counter attack offense. On top of it, you dont want Crosby out there against a Getzlaf or a Kopitar line, his line would get shredded all game at both ends of the ice. He wouldnt be able to stop a Getzlaf defensively and Kopitar would lock him down and take the puck the other way

By this logic the ranking of the best players should be the same and the scoring race each year. This means Blake Wheeler is better than Toews, as is Okposo, Backstrom, Ovechkin, Benn, Kessel, Hall, Seguin, and Duchene.


- DarthKaneWow...that Toews kid really isn't good at all. Hopefully Stan can trade him for a late round draft pick before the rest of the league catches on!

......This is why I used career Point-per-game averages, as opposed to looking at a single season.

Toews' line can literally go out against any and every line out there, produce, and be tough as nails to play against as well

Crosby has clearly shown he cannot. Crosby now struggles against shutdown lines because he is one dimensional and cant turn defense into counter attack offense. On top of it, you dont want Crosby out there against a Getzlaf or a Kopitar line, his line would get shredded all game at both ends of the ice. He wouldnt be able to stop a Getzlaf defensively and Kopitar would lock him down and take the puck the other way
- FourFeathers773

Toews' line can literally go out against any and every line out there, produce, and be tough as nails to play against as well

Crosby has clearly shown he cannot. Crosby now struggles against shutdown lines because he is one dimensional and cant turn defense into counter attack offense. On top of it, you dont want Crosby out there against a Getzlaf or a Kopitar line, his line would get shredded all game at both ends of the ice. He wouldnt be able to stop a Getzlaf defensively and Kopitar would lock him down and take the puck the other way
- FourFeathers773

I am soooo sick of hearing this Kopitar stuff. Do people not see who is on the Kings. Brown, Carter, Richards, Gaborik, Williams, Doughty, Quick and so on. The Kings are probably one of if not the deepest team in the NHL. Kopitar is a great player but let's stop blowing smoke out of our asses. He has a great team behind him.

I am soooo sick of hearing this Kopitar stuff. Do people not see who is on the Kings. Brown, Carter, Richards, Gaborik, Williams, Doughty, Quick and so on. The Kings are probably one of if not the deepest team in the NHL. Kopitar is a great player but let's stop blowing smoke out of our asses. He has a great team behind him.
- RobFlyers#1

Kopitar is really, really good. Only a step or two behind Toews, honestly.

The Penguins call Stan Bowman and make the offer, Crosby for Toews straight up.

Would Bowman turn it down? I can't see him actually saying the word no.

Now Crosby for Kevin Hayes is a different question.
- Rang

Of course he would turn it down - as would Pittsburgh if Bowman made the offer.

Neither team would trade one for the other.

Exactly my point.

Crosby is the significantly better offensive player, no argument. Doesn't even matter who you're comparing him to. No argument exists, idc if he does play in the East.

I could say the same thing for Toews defensively. Crosby pales in comparison defensively to Toews, and I'd love to hear an argument otherwise.

I want to know where Crosby pulls ahead.
- mochoson

saying toews is the better player over crosby to me would be like saying messier was a better player than lemieux. both are awesome players but ultimately the guys who score get all the accolades.

The problem I have with putting toews 1st overall is indeed his points. He's only ever been in the top 20 points leaders one time in his career (13th). While points aren't everything, they are meaningful, and to get my vote for the best player in the league I'd expect a few top 10 seasons.

Crosby is no slouch at D, while not as good as Toews, he does hold his own. Sid is no slouch at the FO dot either. While he does not have the same % as Toews, last season he was relied on by his team to take 500 more face-offs than Toews.

If SId didn't sit out a few years with concussions it would be no contest.

......This is why I used career Point-per-game averages, as opposed to looking at a single season.
- BINGO!

So points are the only stat that matters when considering how good a player is? Winning face offs (for centres), PK and PP time, leadership skills, defensive play...all those factors aren't relevant? I know points are important, but they aren't everything.

Ovechkin's PPG (career) is 1.20 and Backstrom's is 0.99. Would you say they are both better than Toews?

Toews is my favorite of any active player, but I simply cannot consider him the best.

Crosby is in a class by himself when healthy. There have been times where Toews has struggled to produce offensively. Crosby did too this playoff, but we later found out it was likely because of a wrist injury.

My current top 10 :
1. Crosby - Simply no one in hockey today can take over a game like he can.
2. Toews - Best all-around player in the game, but sometimes struggles offensively
3. Malkin - Is the modern-day Mario Lemieux, injuries and all
4. Stamkos - The best pure goal scorer of this generation
5. Datsyuk - His age is the only thing that prevents him from still being on par wit h Toews. Excels in every aspect of the game that matters.
6. Ovechkin - When engaged, is nearly an unstoppable force. Best combination of skill/raw power in the NHL.
7. Duncan Keith - Only defenseman not named Lidstrom to win multiple Norris trophies since 1998.
8. Doughty - Right there with Keith as the top 2-way defensemen in the game.
9. Tavares - Still a lot of upside, one of the most dangerous players with the puck.
10. Perry - Goal scoring, intensity and grit, the best power-forward not named Ovechkin.

Hard to argue with your all-time list, but I would replace Messier with Lidstrom.

Rod Brind'amour put up 70+ points while being one of the best face-off men in the game and winning two consecutive Selke trophies.

He was a tremendous leader and brought home a Stanley Cup.

He was not, at any point, the best player in the league.
- BINGO!

I'm amazed at some of these comments:

Being one of the better penalty killers in the league is A FACTOR in determining a player's overall worth.

Who gives a phuck about Brind'amour - we're talking about two players who arguably are best in the league.

EVERYTHING THEY DO ON THE ICE is a factor.

Kopitar is really, really good. Only a step or two behind Toews, honestly.
- BINGO!

Yes he is...but he's not top 5 or 10 in the league

Kopitar is really, really good. Only a step or two behind Toews, honestly.
- BINGO!

Kopitar is underrated. You can't overlook his ability (not you personally) just because he plays on a team with good players.

Kopitar is underrated. You can't overlook his ability (not you personally) just because he plays on a team with good players.
- DarthKane

I honestly struggled picking between him and Perry as #10. In the end I went with Perry because he's accomplished more individually, but the margin was VERY slim.

Toews is my favorite of any active player, but I simply cannot consider him the best.

Crosby is in a class by himself when healthy. There have been times where Toews has struggled to produce offensively. Crosby did too this playoff, but we later found out it was likely because of a wrist injury.

My current top 10 :
1. Crosby - Simply no one in hockey today can take over a game like he can.
2. Toews - Best all-around player in the game, but sometimes struggles offensively
3. Malkin - Is the modern-day Mario Lemieux, injuries and all
4. Stamkos - The best pure goal scorer of this generation
5. Datsyuk - His age is the only thing that prevents him from still being on par wit h Toews. Excels in every aspect of the game that matters.
6. Ovechkin - When engaged, is nearly an unstoppable force. Best combination of skill/raw power in the NHL.
7. Duncan Keith - Only defenseman not named Lidstrom to win multiple Norris trophies since 1998.
8. Doughty - Right there with Keith as the top 2-way defensemen in the game.
9. Tavares - Still a lot of upside, one of the most dangerous players with the puck.
10. Perry - Goal scoring, intensity and grit, the best power-forward not named Ovechkin.

Hard to argue with your all-time list, but I would replace Messier with Lidstrom.
- andru2797

Soooo where does Giroux come in? I mean he only has the 4 highest PPG average over the past 4 season and has finished 3 in scoring twice over the past three seasons.....but I guess that don't matter

Soooo where does Giroux come in? I mean he only has the 4 highest PPG average over the past 4 season and has finished 3 in scoring twice over the past three seasons.....but I guess that don't matter
- RobFlyers#1

Don't get me wrong, he was right there... It was a toss-up between him, Perry and Kopitar for #10... I went with Perry because of individual+team awards mostly. But I could have easily made a case for the other two.

Perhaps Shea Weber in that group as well... It's not easy once you get out of the top 5. Lots of players close together in terms of value.

Bobby Orr above Gretsky!? WTH is wrong with some people?

Gotta go with bingo on this one. Toews rules, but he is in no way, a better hockey player than Crosby.

Bobby Orr above Gretsky!? WTH is wrong with some people?
- SensFan93

No argument from me. Orr changed the way defensemen played the game. He looked like a man among boys.

So points are the only stat that matters when considering how good a player is? Winning face offs (for centres), PK and PP time, leadership skills, defensive play...all those factors aren't relevant? I know points are important, but they aren't everything.

Ovechkin's PPG (career) is 1.20 and Backstrom's is 0.99. Would you say they are both better than Toews?
- DarthKane

An argument can be made for Ovechkin. You won't hear it from me because I'm picking toews over him every time, but when your 11th in all-time average PPG and 6th all-time average GPG..well..yeah.

So points are the only stat that matters when considering how good a player is? Winning face offs (for centres), PK and PP time, leadership skills, defensive play...all those factors aren't relevant? I know points are important, but they aren't everything.

Ovechkin's PPG (career) is 1.20 and Backstrom's is 0.99. Would you say they are both better than Toews?
- DarthKane

There's certainly an argument to be made for Ovechkin, though his play in his own end has been abhorrent.

Soooo where does Giroux come in? I mean he only has the 4 highest PPG average over the past 4 season and has finished 3 in scoring twice over the past three seasons.....but I guess that don't matter
- RobFlyers#1

He plays on a stacked offensive team. Im so sick of giroux getting hyped because of the good offense around him.

An argument can be made for Ovechkin. You won't hear it from me because I'm picking toews over him every time, but when your 11th in all-time average PPG and 6th all-time average GPG..well..yeah.
- Blackstrom2

Not if your looking at overall play: an average of 65 non-PP goals per year given up while he's on the ice.

There's certainly an argument to be made for Ovechkin, though his play in his own end has been abhorrent.
- BINGO!

Agreed, but by your argument it's only points that matters.

I have no issue with you picking Crosby over Toews, I just take issue with an argument that a player's only worth is the points they score.