The fact that a difference that big exists between two players who some would argue are equal should say it all.

For one, I don't think Crosby averages 114 points playing his entire career in the West.
- mochoson

No idea if he would or not, but that's a moot point. You can't base arguments on things that you cannot prove. Gotta base it in facts.

Fact: Sidney Crosby has the same offensive output per game as 1.5 Jonathon Toews'.

Don't forget the equipment: compared to the sixties and earlier, today's players - fully equipt - look like Transformers, nothing but body armor - I'm surprised they can skate and maneuver as well as they do.

Do you look at players as they played then - if so, of course very few from the 40s/50s/maybe even 60s would make a top-anything list - but if you assume that if playing today, they would have today's training, development, and equipment, then it equalizes out.

I think you have to look at how they played compared to the rest of the league - on that basis, you can make a case for Hall, Sawchuk, Richard (50 goals in 50 games back in the 40s), etc.
- StLBravesFan

Agreed, it's like apples and oranges to some degree.

Crosby better offensive skill set than Toews I'll give you that. But here's my argument could Toews shut down Crosby? Yes. Could Crosby shutdown Toews? No so overall I'd give the slightest edge to Toews.
- Seacon33

Prove it.

A couple of Stanley Cups and a Selke?
- EKolb13

I see your Stanley Cup and raise you 2 Art Ross, 2 Harts, 1 Lester b, a Rocket Richard and a Lindsay.....

Then Datsuyk should be in the #1 spot.
- l3ig_l2ecl

Which is where I put him.

Best overall player? Argument between Datsyuk, Crosby, and Toews. Kopitar a dark horse.

Offensive player? Crosby. No argument there.

I disagree. Teams win games, period.
- mochoson

... Sure. And Toews plays on a better team. But if teams win games, then teams win Stanley Cups, making that number irrelevant.

A couple of Stanley Cups and a Selke?
- EKolb13

A Cup, A couple of Harts, a coupel of Art Ross', a Rocket Richard.....

and he's battled back from 2-3 seasons of major concussion injuries or there'd be more.


Sid is scary good.... I liked him better when he wasn't playing

Prove it.
- BINGO!

The outdoor game this past year

No idea if he would or not, but that's a moot point. You can't base arguments on things that you cannot prove. Gotta base it in facts.

Fact: Sidney Crosby has the same offensive output per game as 1.5 Jonathon Toews'.
- BINGO!

That doesn't automatically make him a better overall hockey player.

It's not a moot point. It's worth mentioning because it's harder to score in the West. If it's a moot point, then the two players aren't comparable then IMO.

I'm interested to see if the gap between the two players offensively remains as wide if you take out secondary assists.

Actually your review of Tavarez got my attention. Because Tavarez is not the fastest or great at some things, yet still is a scorer and a top player.

I just hope Chicago can witness some prospects develop into nice players, even if not ever the star that Tavarez has become. I personally suspect many of the prospects who are going to be in Rockford and or Chicago next season have a high degree of skill and will compete hard - no motivational issues. So when those prospects start taking spots in Chicago, the more who come in the better. A pipeline able to feed these prospects is going to give Chicago the depth to be a strong challenger each season in the playoffs.

I personally wish Morin gets opportunities to play some top line minutes and scores more than just a few. Of course there is no dreaming here that is akin to a Bossy joining Gillies and Trottier.

But as for Chicago prospects, what TT has shown prior to turning pro is probably a good indicator for what he could become. Lots to like. One year to get stronger and play/gain experience....then fans see if he can become a point per game player. Emphasis on "become." Not instantly happening.

Yes, because he has the most points. He is the most productive player in the league and it's not even kind of close. Goals and goaltending wins games. Not intangibles.
- BINGO!

Intangibles - like - penalty kill - one measure being:

Crosby - averaged about 25 seconds of PK time per game last year
Toews - averaged about 1:30 of PK time per game last year

Just an indication that his coach, at least, considers Toews to be more of a two-way player than Bielsma considered Crosby to be.

A Cup, A couple of Harts, a coupel of Art Ross', a Rocket Richard.....

and he's battled back from 2-3 seasons of major concussion injuries or there'd be more.


Sid is scary good.... I liked him better when he wasn't playing
- moylander

The Penguins call Stan Bowman and make the offer, Crosby for Toews straight up.

Would Bowman turn it down? I can't see him actually saying the word no.

Now Crosby for Kevin Hayes is a different question.

... Sure. And Toews plays on a better team. But if teams win games, then teams win Stanley Cups, making that number irrelevant.
- BINGO!

That didn't really have anything to do with either player. You said goals and goaltending win games, not intangibles.

I was merely saying goals, goaltending, and intangibles win games. Anything that a member of your team does on the ice that helps the team win in the end wins games. So I simply said teams win games.

The Penguins call Stan Bowman and make the offer, Crosby for Toews straight up.

Would Bowman turn it down? I can't see him actually saying the word no.

Now Crosby for Kevin Hayes is a different question.
- Rang

What about for the RIGHTS to Kevin Hayes - good for two more weeks.

That doesn't automatically make him a better overall hockey player.

It's not a moot point. It's worth mentioning because it's harder to score in the West. If it's a moot point, then the two players aren't comparable then IMO.

I'm interested to see if the gap between the two players offensively remains as wide if you take out secondary assists.
- mochoson

http://icenationuk.com/20...imary-assists-in-the-nhl/

Toews doesn't make the top 20. and that only counts the past 2 seasons.

Intangibles - like - penalty kill - one measure being:

Crosby - averaged about 25 seconds of PK time per game last year
Toews - averaged about 1:30 of PK time per game last year

Just an indication that his coach, at least, considers Toews to be more of a two-way player than Bielsma considered Crosby to be.
- StLBravesFan

Exactly my point.

Crosby is the significantly better offensive player, no argument. Doesn't even matter who you're comparing him to. No argument exists, idc if he does play in the East.

I could say the same thing for Toews defensively. Crosby pales in comparison defensively to Toews, and I'd love to hear an argument otherwise.

I want to know where Crosby pulls ahead.

The outdoor game this past year
- Seacon33

Oh. You think one game is an accurate sample size. okay.

no bossy, list is wrong.

Intangibles - like - penalty kill - one measure being:

Crosby - averaged about 25 seconds of PK time per game last year
Toews - averaged about 1:30 of PK time per game last year

Just an indication that his coach, at least, considers Toews to be more of a two-way player than Bielsma considered Crosby to be.
- StLBravesFan

Since when did being a good penalty killer put a player into a discussion of being the best player? Jere Lehtinen won 3 Selke's but nobody would put him in the top ten or say he was number 1 when he played

http://icenationuk.com/2014/03/17/interesting-numbers-primary-assists-in-the-nhl/

Toews doesn't make the top 20. and that only counts the past 2 seasons.
- BINGO!

I wasn't expecting him to. I wanted to know if the gap widened or closed between him and Crosby in point% differential.

I wasn't expecting anyone to actually know or even do the work to figure it out, cause I'm not.

Intangibles - like - penalty kill - one measure being:

Crosby - averaged about 25 seconds of PK time per game last year
Toews - averaged about 1:30 of PK time per game last year

Just an indication that his coach, at least, considers Toews to be more of a two-way player than Bielsma considered Crosby to be.
- StLBravesFan

Since when did being a good penalty killer put a player into a discussion of being the best player? Jere Lehtinen won 3 Selke's but nobody would put him in the top ten or say he was number 1 when he played

Oh. You think one game is an accurate sample size. okay.
- BINGO!

The sample size is the data available. So you don't like Toews. Get over it.

Since when did being a good penalty killer put a player into a discussion of being the best player? Jere Lehtinen won 3 Selke's but nobody would put him in the top ten or say he was number 1 when he played
- RobFlyers#1

Since when is being a good penalty killer NOT an attribute for being best player?

It's a factor like everything else the player does on the ice.

The sample size is the data available. So you don't like Toews. Get over it.
- Tanuki

I never said I didn't like Toews. In fact, I repeatedly said that I like Toews a lot and would love to have him on my team.

I'm just saying Crosby is better.

Crosby averages a 1.398 points per game pace. 114.7 points per season.

Toews averages .909 points per game. 74.5 points per season.

I like Toews, but COME ON. That's 40 (frank)ing points difference.
- BINGO!

By this logic the ranking of the best players should be the same and the scoring race each year. This means Blake Wheeler is better than Toews, as is Okposo, Backstrom, Ovechkin, Benn, Kessel, Hall, Seguin, and Duchene.

Wow...that Toews kid really isn't good at all. Hopefully Stan can trade him for a late round draft pick before the rest of the league catches on!