And Weber is also playing with Toews (best player in the world according to you), and sometimes Hossa (top 5 two way player in the world, according to you) right?

I think Keith is worse than Weber on the Predators.
- SolidGoldBricks

We have Weber on our team!? poop, we're gonna be good.

Weber is also a big fish in a small pond. He's constantly relied on whereas Keith as a complete ensemble to play in different situations.

I agree Keith also has his flaws, especially in the getting-the-puck-into-the-net area of his game, but he's a 2-time Norris winner and the only active defenseman with multiple Norris'. Unfortunately, you can't really argue with results.

It was sarcasm.
- SolidGoldBricks

Well them , keep going sir!

Well them , keep going sir!
- l3ig_l2ecl

We have Weber on our team!? poop, we're gonna be good.

Weber is also a big fish in a small pond. He's constantly relied on whereas Keith as a complete ensemble to play in different situations.

I agree Keith also has his flaws, especially in the getting-the-puck-into-the-net area of his game, but he's a 2-time Norris winner and the only active defenseman with multiple Norris'. Unfortunately, you can't really argue with results.
- teh_HAWKZ

I'd put Keith ahead of Weber, by the way. I guess I should have stated that. But I think that Weber is better off on a less-complete team like the Preds than Keith would be. Keith is a great player, but you can't argue that he benefits from having the best (IMO) team in hockey around him.

Why, because he always has the most points?

Datsyuk. Toews. Stamkos. Malkin. Kopitar.

Their are certainly worthy arguments.
- mochoson

Arguments for what?? Number 1? No. You can argue from two down. Number 1 is already owned by Crosby and that's coming from a flyers fan

Don't forget the equipment: compared to the sixties and earlier, today's players - fully equipt - look like Transformers, nothing but body armor - I'm surprised they can skate and maneuver as well as they do.

Do you look at players as they played then - if so, of course very few from the 40s/50s/maybe even 60s would make a top-anything list - but if you assume that if playing today, they would have today's training, development, and equipment, then it equalizes out.

I think you have to look at how they played compared to the rest of the league - on that basis, you can make a case for Hall, Sawchuk, Richard (50 goals in 50 games back in the 40s), etc.
- StLBravesFan

This is probably the best point. The best way of comparing players from different era's is to compare them to other players during their time. Richard for example scoring 50 in 50, and being the only player to score 50 goals in a season until Geoffrion in 1961, and the only 50 in 50 player until Bossy in 1981. That to me helps make him one of the greatest players of all time as he wasn't just a goal scorer anyways.

It seems ludicrous to me that anyone can say that anyone other than Sidney Crosby is the best forward in the game today.

Of course he is.

It's not even kind of close.
- BINGO!

Arguments can be made for either Crosby or Toews as the best player in the league. I think Toews is, but I can understand why others would pick Crosby. But without a doubt it is close.

alltime point per game players (retired)

1. Wayne Gretzky 1.921
2. Mario Lemieux 1.883
3. Mike Bossy 1.497
4. Bobby Orr 1.393
5. Marcel Dionne 1.314
6. Peter Stastny 1.268
7. Peter Forsberg 1.250
8. Kent Nilsson 1.240
9. Phil Esposito 1.240
10. Guy Lafleur 1.202

Crosby averages a 1.398 points per game pace. 114.7 points per season.

Toews averages .909 points per game. 74.5 points per season.

I like Toews, but COME ON. That's 40 (frank)ing points difference.

I feel like we just keep coming back to Adam Oates.

Arguments can be made for either Crosby or Toews as the best player in the league. I think Toews is, but I can understand why others would pick Crosby. But without a doubt it is close.
- DarthKane

No, no it is not.

Crosby averages a 1.398 points per game pace. 114.7 points per season.

Toews averages .909 points per game. 74.5 points per season.

I like Toews, but COME ON. That's 40 (frank)ing points difference.
- BINGO!

There is more to the game then just racking up goals and assists...

Crosby averages a 1.398 points per game pace. 114.7 points per season.

Toews averages .909 points per game. 74.5 points per season.

I like Toews, but COME ON. That's 40 (frank)ing points difference.
- BINGO!

They don't get that

Arguments for what?? Number 1? No. You can argue from two down. Number 1 is already owned by Crosby and that's coming from a flyers fan
- RobFlyers#1

I respect you're opinion, it's a good one. You haven't presented an argument why though.

What makes Crosby number 1 other then the fact he out-scores everybody?

There is more to the game then just racking up goals and assists...
- EKolb13

Would you like to explain what that may be

Why, because he always has the most points?

Datsyuk. Toews. Stamkos. Malkin. Kopitar.

Their are certainly worthy arguments.
- mochoson

Yes, because he has the most points. He is the most productive player in the league and it's not even kind of close. Goals and goaltending wins games. Not intangibles.

I respect you're opinion, it's a good one. You haven't presented an argument why though.

What makes Crosby number 1 other then the fact he out-scores everybody?
- mochoson

I should not have to. What made Gretzky Better? Was it not the fact he out scored everybody?

I have not missed an Olympic hockey game that involved Canada since 92. I am not going to argue the qualities of Toews or how good he has been at the Olympics or in the NHL he's been great. Was his performance at the past two Olympics better than Crosby's..... absolutely. That still does not make him a better player than Crosby. You can argue for Toews at two not number 1 and I would be in the majority when it comes to saying that. You can't judge individual players based on Stanley Cups because if that was the case Kevin Lowe would be in the top ranked all time d men and we all known that would be bull. Cups and winning in general is done by teams. Individual stats define a player and that is where Toews falls short of Crosby.
- RobFlyers#1

Crosby better offensive skill set than Toews I'll give you that. But here's my argument could Toews shut down Crosby? Yes. Could Crosby shutdown Toews? No so overall I'd give the slightest edge to Toews.

Arguments can be made for either Crosby or Toews as the best player in the league. I think Toews is, but I can understand why others would pick Crosby. But without a doubt it is close.
- DarthKane

Personally I can't stand Crosby. Cries too much.

But he is the best all around player in the game today. Not even close.
He has 40% more points than the next best player in his team.
Toews is a great leader, but he didn't even rack up a ppg with the wingers he has.

Crosby averages a 1.398 points per game pace. 114.7 points per season.

Toews averages .909 points per game. 74.5 points per season.

I like Toews, but COME ON. That's 40 (frank)ing points difference.
- BINGO!

The fact that a difference that big exists between two players who some would argue are equal should say it all.

For one, I don't think Crosby averages 114 points playing his entire career in the West.

Would you like to explain what that may be
- RobFlyers#1

A couple of Stanley Cups and a Selke?

There is more to the game then just racking up goals and assists...
- EKolb13

Yep, there sure is. But that's basically the main thing. Goals and goaltending wins you games. That other stuff is nice. I mean, sure, Toews is fantastic in his own end and a great personality and I'd love to have him on my team.

But to say he's the best player in the league is ludicrous.

Crosby better offensive skill set than Toews I'll give you that. But here's my argument could Toews shut down Crosby? Yes. Could Crosby shutdown Toews? No so overall I'd give the slightest edge to Toews.
- Seacon33

Then Datsuyk should be in the #1 spot.

Yes, because he has the most points. He is the most productive player in the league and it's not even kind of close. Goals and goaltending wins games. Not intangibles.
- BINGO!

I disagree. Teams win games, period.

Crosby averages a 1.398 points per game pace. 114.7 points per season.

Toews averages .909 points per game. 74.5 points per season.

I like Toews, but COME ON. That's 40 (frank)ing points difference.
- BINGO!

Great stat. Toews has the edge in his own end but certainly Crosby's offensive edge is more valuable.