The actual top 5 on the all time list should be:

1. Gretzky - Come on, the guy has more assists than any other player has total points.
2. Orr - Hell of a dman and could put up points.
3. Messier - 2nd most points overall, probably the best captain ever and was tough as nails. Played a complete game and put up more points than Howe in 9 less seasons.
4. Howe - Hell, he's Gordie Freakin Howe
5. Lemieux - An amazing player, could dominate the ice and if it wasn't for his injuries and health, he numbers would've been much higher.
- Horseguts

simplest and most accurate analysis of Howe. Love it.

Even those grainy highlight reels you see a guy who dominates like no one has before or since. The guy could do it all, score a ton of points, hold onto the puck forever, use his teammates as well as anyone but Gretzky, play solid defense, play physical and he could fight. As good gretzky was he was average defensively, below and average physically and couldn't fight to save his life.
- paulr

Different era. Does orr even put up 40 points in todays nhl? No one knows.

The problem here is according to those who saw him play, they say Orr could play defense and be physical. Karlsson, not so much.

Not bashing Karlsson, he's got great vision, and the best offensive Dman in the game.

However, to me, it's another way to say he's the best backward skating forward in the game.
- l3ig_l2ecl

Well said

Orr would be the best player in the game today by a mile. You are right on all counts Paul.
- John Jaeckel

But what would his corsi be?

Different era. Does orr even put up 40 points in todays nhl? No one knows.
- rangerdanger94

With today's skates and conditioning, etc., he'd win the Norris every year and probably be in the top 10 in most offensive categories. The guy was gifted, physically (mostly) and mentally.

Erik Karlsson is not really in the same conversation offensively.

Chicago puts Toews out there on the PK because he has offensive upside which has the potential to lead to shorthanded points to go along with his rock solid defensive play and strong endurance.
- rangerdanger94

So if that's your argument....let's put Mike Richards in there then....he has 8 career short handed goals as does Toews but two of Richards were scored while killing 5 on 3. Does this sound right?

Orr would be the best player in the game today by a mile. You are right on all counts Paul.
- John Jaeckel

It's too hard to decide between Gretz and Orr in my opinion. You clearly have the best forward and best d-man of all time in those two. Both were miles above their competition, and still would be if the sorcerors stone existed (and maybe it does, lets not start that debate today as well).

I was raised in the school of Orr is the best ever (I'm too young to have been a witness), but I still can't bring myself to make a decision between the two.

Where would Don Cherry land on this debate? Kidding.

But what would his corsi be?
- rangerdanger94

That's above my pay grade, but dude, he get's closer to 80 points a game in today's NHL than 40.

Born before 1965?

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

The way you say that just undermines your own credibility. At the very least, there is a valid argument there. Maybe you never saw orr beyond some grainy highlight reels, dunno.
- John Jaeckel

That's the only time I've ever seen Orr, and I'm picking him. Imagine if Orr played forward.

Different era. Does orr even put up 40 points in todays nhl? No one knows.
- rangerdanger94

That's why you have to look at players relative to their competition.
Orr was so far ahead of anyone else when he played, largely on no knees by the way, that to me he has to be considered the greatest (or at the very least 1B).

Same thing with Sid... a player who scores 130 pts now when others are scoring 85 is as far ahead of his peers as Gretzky was at 215 when others were scoring 160.

It's too hard to decide between Gretz and Orr in my opinion. You clearly have the best forward and best d-man of all time in those two. Both were miles above their competition, and still would be if the sorcerors stone existed (and maybe it does, lets not start that debate today as well).

I was raised in the school of Orr is the best ever (I'm too young to have been a witness), but I still can't bring myself to make a decision between the two.

Where would Don Cherry land on this debate? Kidding.
- SolidGoldBricks

let me put it this way. i have always said 99 was the best from the neck up and 4 the best from the neck down. But I take 4 as the best ever. 99 was incredible.

I don't even know why we're having this discussing. No one in their right mind will say Toews is a better player than Crosby.

It's like saying Bob Gainey was a better player than Gretzky because he could shut him down, but not the other way around....
- l3ig_l2ecl

Oh and then the truth was told....could not have said it better

Different era. Does orr even put up 40 points in todays nhl? No one knows.
- rangerdanger94

Eras matter with average players not with the superstars. Orr today would be the best player in the game.

That's above my pay grade, but dude, he get's closer to 80 points a game in today's NHL than 40.
- John Jaeckel

80 points a game eh?

simplest and most accurate analysis of Howe. Love it.
- SolidGoldBricks

Glad you liked it.

The problem here is according to those who saw him play, they say Orr could play defense and be physical. Karlsson, not so much.

Not bashing Karlsson, he's got great vision, and the best offensive Dman in the game.

However, to me, it's another way to say he's the best backward skating forward in the game.
- l3ig_l2ecl

Karlsson is in no way as good as Orr that's not what I'm trying to say as yea Karlsson definitely doesn't play the body at all. I'm just saying if there's a chance of a defenseman winning the Art Ross Trophy like Orr did then Karlsson is probably the only one capable in today's NHL.

Toews is my favorite of any active player, but I simply cannot consider him the best.

Crosby is in a class by himself when healthy. There have been times where Toews has struggled to produce offensively. Crosby did too this playoff, but we later found out it was likely because of a wrist injury.

My current top 10 :
1. Crosby - Simply no one in hockey today can take over a game like he can.
2. Toews - Best all-around player in the game, but sometimes struggles offensively
3. Malkin - Is the modern-day Mario Lemieux, injuries and all
4. Stamkos - The best pure goal scorer of this generation
5. Datsyuk - His age is the only thing that prevents him from still being on par wit h Toews. Excels in every aspect of the game that matters.
6. Ovechkin - When engaged, is nearly an unstoppable force. Best combination of skill/raw power in the NHL.
7. Duncan Keith - Only defenseman not named Lidstrom to win multiple Norris trophies since 1998.
8. Doughty - Right there with Keith as the top 2-way defensemen in the game.
9. Tavares - Still a lot of upside, one of the most dangerous players with the puck.
10. Perry - Goal scoring, intensity and grit, the best power-forward not named Ovechkin.

Hard to argue with your all-time list, but I would replace Messier with Lidstrom.
- andru2797

simplest and most accurate analysis of Howe. Love it.
- SolidGoldBricks

YES

That's why you have to look at players relative to their competition.
Orr was so far ahead of anyone else when he played, largely on no knees by the way, that to me he has to be considered the greatest (or at the very least 1B).

Same thing with Sid... a player who scores 130 pts now when others are scoring 85 is as far ahead of his peers as Gretzky was at 215 when others were scoring 160.
- andru2797

yeah..uh Sid has never scored 130 points.

So if that's your argument....let's put Mike Richards in there then....he has 8 career short handed goals as does Toews but two of Richards were scored while killing 5 on 3. Does this sound right?
- RobFlyers#1

I don't understand what you're trying to say? Are you trying to take my argument and twist it into saying that by my logic, Mike Richards is a better hockey player than Toews?

Mike Richards scored barely over 40 points this year and was relegated to the 4th line for much of the regular season and playoffs.

You said that Chicago only puts Toews on the PK because every other Blackhawks player sucks at playing PK and that's not true. They put them out there so much because he's great at it and provides some offense potential as well over a guy like Kruger.

To determine how good a player is overall, you need to look at the...OVERALL...picture. You need to look at every aspect of their games. Toews is better than Mike Richards in offense, defense, and leadership.

let me put it this way. i have always said 99 was the best from the neck up and 4 the best from the neck down. But I take 4 as the best ever. 99 was incredible.
- John Jaeckel

I'd go with the Great One, Orr a very close 2nd, no one else even close after that.

I actually really like the way you put it there though.

yeah..uh Sid has never scored 130 points.
- Blackstrom2

I realize that... just illustrating that you can make a case for Crosby being far ahead of his competition... 104-87 is still a large gap in today's game, especially considering who his linemates have been.

I'd go with the Great One, Orr a very close 2nd, no one else else even close after that.

I actually really like the way you put it there though.
- moylander

Hard to say that someone is better than the guy the world names The Great One.

I'd love to see a list of the top 10 current dmen,, now that would cause arguments lol

I'd love to see a list of the top 10 current dmen,, now that would cause arguments lol
- KovyFan27

You're not wrong, that's for sure.