I hear you on the Sedin/Datsyuk argument (again, age/injuries). Going to respectfully disagree on Keith/Weber. Weber was a minus player the last two seasons.

Also the argument that Keith is "carried" by Seabrook is not borne out by what happens when they're separated. Keith more than holds his own.

Keith has flaws, but his strengths are exceptional and he is almost a one-of-a-kind player.
- John Jaeckel

Just stop with the plus/minus thing. The hawks arguably have 4-6 forwards on their team that are better than the Preds best forward from the past two seasons. It is easy to be a plus player when the forwards in front of you possess the puck all the time.

By no means I am saying Keith is garbage...but giving him the edge due to plus/minus is such a cop out.

Just stop with the plus/minus thing. The hawks arguably have 4-6 forwards on their team that are better than the Preds best forward from the past two seasons. It is easy to be a plus player when the forwards in front of you possess the puck all the time.

By no means I am saying Keith is garbage...but giving him the edge due to plus/minus is such a cop out.
- nikoli1206

Nobody likes stats or facts that go against what they believe.

I tried to add a factor - JUST a factor - to the Toews / Crosby discussion yesterday, and was told that just because someone plays and is very good on the PK doesn't mean he is the best in the league. I never said that - just that playing well on the PK IS a factor in evaluating a player. I'm still getting shots about it this morning.

All of these things - INCLUDING +/- - are part of the evaluation process, and to dismiss them because they don't fit into your view of the world is wrong and dishonest.

Nobody likes stats or facts that go against what they believe.

I tried to add a factor - JUST a factor - to the Toews / Crosby discussion yesterday, and was told that just because someone plays and is very good on the PK doesn't mean he is the best in the league. I never said that - just that playing well on the PK IS a factor in evaluating a player. I'm still getting shots about it this morning.

All of these things - INCLUDING +/- - are part of the evaluation process, and to dismiss them because they don't fit into your view of the world is wrong and dishonest.
- StLBravesFan

By your logic, Bergeron is also better than Crosby.

By your logic, Bergeron is also better than Crosby.
- rangerdanger94

Please explain why you say that?

By your logic, Bergeron is also better than Crosby.
- rangerdanger94

What do you want to hear that will make you go away?

For (frank)'s sake, it is spelled TOEWS!!!

Fair enough, and that is predictable considering you are a Hawks fan and see all the little things Toews does on a consistent basis. It's similar to me preferring Ryan McDonagh and what he brings to the Rangers over PK Subban even though every other fanbase will tell me I'm a biased homer. Almost every other fanbase would trade McDonagh for Subban but when you look at McDonagh's contract and consider the fact that Subban might be making almost double what McDonagh does soon, do you still do that trade?

Now obviously you prefer Toews over Crosby as players, and I'm sure half the GMs in the league might too, but does your opinion of trading him for Crosby change when you consider their contracts? Would you prefer to keep Toews and then ship out Sharp for something making only $3M a year like Matthieu Perreault or trade Toews for Crosby and keep Sharp? So Toews and Perreault or Crosby and Sharp?

Does Toews provide you enough that you wouldn't want almost 40 extra points for almost $2M less AAV?
- rangerdanger94

I agree with you, but the salary cap hit is all about timing. Crosby and McDonagh would be making considerable more money if they were UFA's today. You win some, you lose some.

Just stop with the plus/minus thing. The hawks arguably have 4-6 forwards on their team that are better than the Preds best forward from the past two seasons. It is easy to be a plus player when the forwards in front of you possess the puck all the time.

By no means I am saying Keith is garbage...but giving him the edge due to plus/minus is such a cop out.
- nikoli1206

OK, but that's far from solely why I give him the edge. And I do agree, +/- is affected by so many other factors, it can't be a sole determining factor of really anything. But more of an indicator you can look at along with other things.

But . . .

The truth is, how do you accurately measure really what Keith does defending in space? How do you accurately measure what his mobility and passing do in terms of the Hawks' transition game (which some argue is what makes them one of the top 2-3 teams in the league)? You really can't.

I would argue, his +/- is one reflection of those things.

Conversely, Weber's +/- DID dramatically tumble after Suter left. It's not the be all, end all as far as a statement on Weber (or Suter) but it does indicate something as to how Weber may have benefited from playing with him.

Now, you can come back at me and say Keith benefits similarly from Seabrook. But I can say Seabrook is the one who benefits, because Keith has played pretty well no matter who he plays with: Hjalmarsson, even freaking Brookbank.

So that's my point—yours is well taken.

For (frank)'s sake, it is spelled TOEWS!!!
- Dannyboy

All caps?

Please explain why you say that?
- StLBravesFan

I'm just kidding around man.

What do you want to hear that will make you go away?
- paulr

"Rangerdanger94, you can go home early today" -Boss

I'm just kidding around man.
- rangerdanger94

Ok - it's been a struggle.

On this board, we use red font to denote "kidding around".

John Jaeckel: Top 10 Players, Now And All-Time
- John Jaeckel

I agree with Toews as #1 because he is a more complete player than Crosby. Malkin and Ovechkin are too high on this list. Ovechkins deficiencies cant be over looked just because he scores 75% of his goals from the faceoff circle with one-timers. Giroux and Stamkos are in the top 5.

1) Jonathan Toews
2) Sidney Crosby
3) Claude Giroux (More pts than anyone in the last 4 years, completely carries the Flyers, faceoffs, Penalty killing, etc.)
4) Steve Stamkos
5) Drew Doughty
6) Evgeni Malkin
7) Shea Weber
8) Duncan Keith
9) John Tavares
10) Alexander Ovechkin

By your logic, Bergeron is also better than Crosby.
- rangerdanger94

Fact is, you are using logical fallacies and it is getting boring. The
reality is, everyone entitled to their own opinion. I don’t know if it’s
early or and the caffeine hasn’t kicked in, but trolling is a bad idea,
especially on a board in which the refs have been watching lately.
Usually, the homers will claim that their team and player are best.
Simply put, Toews is number one and no trolling will change that.

Imo this sums up the whole Toews vs. Crosby debate
http://www.sportsnet.ca/h...sby-is-better-than-toews/
- Pensfan8792

These too?
http://www.torontosun.com...-ill-take-toews---and-win
http://thehockeywriters.c...orlds-best-hockey-player/

It's easy to find differing opinions

HEYYYYYYY PRD!!!
- Elbows15

Hey there Bows. Credit to JJ stirring up some hockey conversation in the doldrums of the summer. Caught me off guard seeing a thread with so many posts in a pretty short amount of time.

I think guys like Francis and Jagr get the short end of the stick in debates like this.

Sure, they've played a ton of games, but they were at their most productive and dominant through an era where it was okay to just tackle guys once they crossed the blueline.

Ronnie Franchise is 4th all-time in points. FOURTH. And he never even gets mentioned. Marcel Dionne? Same deal.

Jagr is the only player in the top 40 point producers that is still playing today. That's ridiculous.

More Dog Day Reading - good piece about the Hawks' by Chris Peters on CBSSports.com:

http://www.cbssports.com/...nathan-toews-patrick-kane

Any particular reason why Ulf Samuelsson isn't on this list?

Claude Giroux would no longer be on list for top ten considerations...

Yeah I have problems with the order and anmes on each list but being a fan and regualr attender it is tough to try and fit all the eras in a 1, 2, 3 order...


Not looking for a debate, just tough to do.

time consuming and you are bond to miss someone.

Claude Giroux would no longer be on list for top ten considerations...
- wiz1901

Why not?

Claude Giroux would no longer be on list for top ten considerations...
- wiz1901

What are you smoking?

What are you smoking?
- GOA88

Dominant players win stuff, make the players around them better.

Honestly not trying to hurt feelings argue, or make a point.

opinion.

That bumhole (and I know for a fact most players hate him) Corey Perry is a far tougher guy to play against each night.

Any particular reason why Ulf Samuelsson isn't on this list?
- Yeah Boyes

He's widely loathed because he was such a tremendous pain in the ass to play against. Which is unfortunate, because that was basically his job, and I don't think anyone has ever done it better.

I agree with Toews as #1 because he is a more complete player than Crosby. Malkin and Ovechkin are too high on this list. Ovechkins deficiencies cant be over looked just because he scores 75% of his goals from the faceoff circle with one-timers. Giroux and Stamkos are in the top 5.

1) Jonathan Toews
2) Sidney Crosby
3) Claude Giroux (More pts than anyone in the last 4 years, completely carries the Flyers, faceoffs, Penalty killing, etc.)
4) Steve Stamkos
5) Drew Doughty
6) Evgeni Malkin
7) Shea Weber
8) Duncan Keith
9) John Tavares
10) Alexander Ovechkin
- GOA88

Now I will give you crap.
I guess you got the spliff smoke in your mouth...

Weber is the MOST over rated hype in the league.

Forget the size shot and stats.

It doesn't make up for what I consider being a real defenseman who is an impact defender, and he is not.