Not the best assessment.
Gunnar will most likely be a 3rd pairing guy on St Louis.
Difference is.....the Leafs needed a more defensive player......the leafs probably went to St Louis, not the other way around. So of course it wouldnt be a player for player trade.
- Fakepartofme

thank you

It is very evident they did not compete hard on the puck in both zones, I have been torturing myself watching games on NHL centre and Leafs TV (I refuse to watch BB with the girls) and seeing every game the wingers bailing on battles. Re-watching the games made it crystal clear the compete level was a HUGE problem.
- LeafMan

But I think (and Lums mentioned it) they are instructed to fall back in a lot of cases.
which probably looks a lot like "no compete" Lose the FO. fall back and defend

What I like about the Stats nerds who dont watch the games... is they will watch games and certain plays over and over and provide some really insightful stuff.
its almost as if these nerds who dont watch the games..actually watch a lot of games to track and analyze this stuff

He's a bit more ranty than I usually like, but most of his analysis is pretty solid.

I'm assuming that the aforementioned rantiness comes from being an Oilers fan
- lumlums

I dont see the rantyness myself

But I think (and Lums mentioned it) they are instructed to fall back in a lot of cases.
which probably looks a lot like "no compete" Lose the FO. fall back and defend

What I like about the Stats nerds who dont watch the games... is they will watch games and certain plays over and over and provide some really insightful stuff.
its almost as if these nerds who dont watch the games..actually watch a lot of games to track and analyze this stuff
- senstroll

I dont see the rantyness myself
- senstroll

It's usually the non-hockey related posts that are ranty

Not the best assessment.
Gunnar will most likely be a 3rd pairing guy on St Louis.
Difference is.....the Leafs needed a more defensive player......the leafs probably went to St Louis, not the other way around. So of course it wouldnt be a player for player trade.
- Fakepartofme

I think a few of you are missing my point:

Gunnarson is not a top pairing guy. He's not even a 2nd pairing guy.

Yet he played with Phaneuf 70% of the time at even strength.

And before that, it was Kostka.

I'd love to see Phaneuf paired with a guy who doesn't suck.

But I think (and Lums mentioned it) they are instructed to fall back in a lot of cases.
which probably looks a lot like "no compete" Lose the FO. fall back and defend

What I like about the Stats nerds who dont watch the games... is they will watch games and certain plays over and over and provide some really insightful stuff.
its almost as if these nerds who dont watch the games..actually watch a lot of games to track and analyze this stuff
- senstroll

Nah, I gotta agree with Leafman.....a lot of games, the players simply didnt have the compete level.
That's on the player.

Nah, I gotta agree with Leafman.....a lot of games, the players simply didnt have the compete level.
That's on the player.
- Fakepartofme

ok no problem
then lets hope RC found some magic compete beans on his way to the market... not sure what he traded for them..but its worth it im sure

But I think (and Lums mentioned it) they are instructed to fall back in a lot of cases.
which probably looks a lot like "no compete" Lose the FO. fall back and defend

What I like about the Stats nerds who dont watch the games... is they will watch games and certain plays over and over and provide some really insightful stuff.
its almost as if these nerds who dont watch the games..actually watch a lot of games to track and analyze this stuff
- senstroll

System has nothing to do with it in the offensive zone or along the boards in the D zone, it was the failure to sacrifice or win the battle for a loose puck, the winger was there and lost the majority of the possessions for the puck, that has to change.

If you want to say it is a system issue that goes to positioning in all zones which is a separate problem but it is not when the player is there to compete for a puck battle, that is a one on one issue.

I think a few of you are missing my point:

Gunnarson is not a top pairing guy. He's not even a 2nd pairing guy.

Yet he played with Phaneuf 70% of the time at even strength.

And before that, it was Kostka.

I'd love to see Phaneuf paired with a guy who doesn't suck.
- Atomic Wedgie

I think that you're doing him quite the disservice here Wedgie. A fully fit Gunnar is a solid 3/4D for almost any team. Even for St. Louis with their stacked D, he'll likely play second pair with Shattenkirk.

With Gunnar gone, Randy's gonna be forced to find a new partner for #3. Who do you think it will be? I'm thinking Gardiner, to start the season anyway.

By next year, though, I think Rielly-Phaneuf will be top pair, and a perfectly reasonable one
- TheThrill

Gardiner-Phaneuf would be a nightmare.

I know this sounds crazy, but I'm thinking Robidas (although, once again, I haven't watched him in a decade, so I don't know where his game is).

Basically give Robidas Kostka's old spot - 1st pairing at ES, and absolutely no time on special teams to keep his minutes down.

ok no problem
then lets hope RC found some magic compete beans on his way to the market... not sure what he traded for them..but its worth it im sure
- senstroll

Again...its not up to RC....its on the players.
Not sure why the coach gets blamed for lazy players.

System has nothing to do with it in the offensive zone or along the boards in the D zone, it was the failure to sacrifice or win the battle for a loose puck, the winger was there and lost the majority of the possessions for the puck, that has to change.

If you want to say it is a system issue that goes to positioning in all zones which is a separate problem but it is not when the player is there to compete for a puck battle, that is a one on one issue.
- LeafMan

They're quite apparently being told to fall back and defend space rather than attack the puck (as it's what they all do, all the time).

That is not only a problem with the system, it will also look like they give zero (frank)s...

Tyler Dellow (mc79hockey) made some good points yesterday. I've always complained about the lack of pressure from the Leafs when they dump in for a line change; everybody heads off and the other team can skate the puck out unimpeded. He pointed out that that is exactly what they do when they lose an OZone face off also; everybody turns to head back to try and protect against a chip-out (that doesn't come due to lack of pressure), and allows the other team to carry the puck out and get set up.

I'm not yet ready to put it down to lack of compete when it's so glaringly obvious that the system is flawed. Let's be honest, they guys seem to care, they just seem to be told the wrong thing. In the O-zone they give up way too much space to the guy with the puck allowing him to bring it out. In the D-zone, it's the opposite; everybody collapses towards the puck-carrier, leaving at least one or two of his teammates open in front of the net or at the points.

I really hope that Spott and Horachek can help to turn this poop around.
- lumlums

Drew MacIntyre was back on the Island last weekend for a mutual friends wedding. He said:

He was going to re-sign in Toronto. Things were going well and then the Leafs just broke off talks, never revisitted it again, no idea why, so he left.

RC is a terrible coach. Has no relationship with the players. Never asks how they are/how's the kids/how's the wife type stuff. The guys have tuned him out.

Spott is the complete opposite. All the guys love him.

They know that Spott is being groomed to be the next coach. Only a matter of time

Babcock and Shanahan don't get along (not that they need to). Add those two things up. Babcock won't be coming to the Leafs.

All the guys like Dion. There's no rift between him and anyone else.

However, Dion isn't a very good leader, problem is there weren't any leaders on the team.

This lead to management bringing in guys who can lead themselves and letting guys go who needed their hand held at all times.

Stamkos coming to Toronto is more realistic than people think

I think a few of you are missing my point:

Gunnarson is not a top pairing guy. He's not even a 2nd pairing guy.

Yet he played with Phaneuf 70% of the time at even strength.

And before that, it was Kostka.

I'd love to see Phaneuf paired with a guy who doesn't suck.
- Atomic Wedgie

I'd like to see him with Robidas...but that would throw the balance of the existing D out of whack

They're quite apparently being told to fall back and defend space rather than attack the puck (as it's what they all do, all the time).

That is not only a problem with the system, it will also look like they give zero (frank)s...
- lumlums

Grrr...It is not a system issue when you cannot win puck battles one on one, that is a compete issue.

It is a system issue when your positioning makes it hard to get to the puck battles, this is a separate issue that we already know. I'm talking about one on one battles that players are already there to engage in.

I think that you're doing him quite the disservice here Wedgie. A fully fit Gunnar is a solid 3/4D for almost any team. Even for St. Louis with their stacked D, he'll likely play second pair with Shattenkirk.
- lumlums

Meh, on a quality team, Gunnar is a 5th/6th dman.....maybe some time in the 4th spot cause of injuries.

Drew MacIntyre was back on the Island last weekend for a mutual friends wedding. He said:

He was going to re-sign in Toronto. Things were going well and then the Leafs just broke off talks, never revisitted it again, no idea why, so he left.

RC is a terrible coach. Has no relationship with the players. Never asks how they are/how's the kids/how's the wife type stuff. The guys have tuned him out.

Spott is the complete opposite. All the guys love him.

They know that Spott is being groomed to be the next coach. Only a matter of time

Babcock and Shanahan don't get along (not that they need to). Add those two things up. Babcock won't be coming to the Leafs.

All the guys like Dion. There's no rift between him and anyone else.

However, Dion isn't a very good leader, problem is there weren't any leaders on the team.

This lead to management bringing in guys who can lead themselves and letting guys go who needed their hand held at all times.

Stamkos coming to Toronto is more realistic than people think
- walshyleafsfan

How do you know this???Not that im thinking hes coming here.

Meh, on a quality team, Gunnar is a 5th/6th dman.....maybe some time in the 4th spot cause of injuries.
- Fakepartofme

How many teams have 4 better D than him?

I'm definitely interested by that.

Drew MacIntyre was back on the Island last weekend for a mutual friends wedding. He said:

He was going to re-sign in Toronto. Things were going well and then the Leafs just broke off talks, never revisitted it again, no idea why, so he left.

RC is a terrible coach. Has no relationship with the players. Never asks how they are/how's the kids/how's the wife type stuff. The guys have tuned him out.

Spott is the complete opposite. All the guys love him.

They know that Spott is being groomed to be the next coach. Only a matter of time

Babcock and Shanahan don't get along (not that they need to). Add those two things up. Babcock won't be coming to the Leafs.

All the guys like Dion. There's no rift between him and anyone else.

However, Dion isn't a very good leader, problem is there weren't any leaders on the team.

This lead to management bringing in guys who can lead themselves and letting guys go who needed their hand held at all times.

Stamkos coming to Toronto is more realistic than people think
- walshyleafsfan

Babcock to Toronto was pipe dream....he wont be coming here.
Stamkos....I doubt he'll be a leaf. Unless the lightning really suck prior to his UFA....if they dont, there's no reason for him to leave.

How do you know this???Not that im thinking hes coming here.
- nbboy

That's what he told me and a buddy who's good friends with him. I don't know how he would know what other players are thinking though?

Again...its not up to RC....its on the players.
Not sure why the coach gets blamed for lazy players.
- Fakepartofme

for not motivating them but this is on the players as well.

he needs the netflix motivation speech.

Grrr...It is not a system issue when you cannot win puck battles one on one, that is a compete issue.

It is a system issue when your positioning makes it hard to get to the puck battles, this is a separate issue that we already know. I'm talking about one on one battles that players are already there to engage in.
- LeafMan

It's also a size issue. The Leafs only have Ashton, Bodie, Orr, JvR, Dion and Franson that are bigger than me, (with Holland, Jake the same kinda size) and I'm not exactly a giant. Take a relatively young team lacking in size and strength and they will not be able to compete physically with others. Maybe the "defend space" tactic is trying to protect that a little bit?

Babcock to Toronto was pipe dream....he wont be coming here.
Stamkos....I doubt he'll be a leaf. Unless the lightning really suck prior to his UFA....if they dont, there's no reason for him to leave.
- Fakepartofme

All depends on what he wants.
To grow up in a Leaf crazed area like Markham, and to grow up a huge Leaf fan, there will be a small part of him that dreamed up playing for the Leafs when he grew up.
Priorities change as you grow up, but considering he'll get close to a max deal anywhere he goes, the money won't be any different. (unless Tampa cannot afford another Lecavalier)

It's also a size issue. The Leafs only have Ashton, Bodie, Orr, JvR, Dion and Franson that are bigger than me, (with Holland, Jake the same kinda size) and I'm not exactly a giant. Take a relatively young team lacking in size and strength and they will not be able to compete physically with others. Maybe the "defend space" tactic is trying to protect that a little bit?
- lumlums

Don't pull the size card.
Montreal played great hockey and lacked size.
And more and more impact players in hockey are smaller than before.

What Toronto lacks is what has been said before, it's positioning and a proper system.
Anaheim looked to be headed towards a lottery pick and everyone believed they might consider a rebuild. Why? A lot of people thought Getzlaf, and Perry etc lacked compete. Same thing we're saying about Toronto.
What do the two teams have in common when this was reported? The coach.
In one scenario, when the coach was fired, the team went to the top of the standings.