Look at the stats and the fact that Crosby was the shutdown line last year. Sutter at 4 mil is lunacy. He's not that good. Goc is equally talented or better, and for much cheaper.
- Topshelf Mountain

I'm not saying Goc's not as good. Just saying that it seems to be the same exact story every year. People don't understand what a third line center is and when they don't score every game they become the escape goat. I'm saying no matter who the 3rd line center is if they don't have a supporting cast then they will not live up to expectation. If you are a third line center usually means you don't have a enough skill to 'elevate' anchors.

And that is fine. Sutter leaves, whatever. It is always the same story with pens fans and the third line center. Next year when Goc has no linemates and doesn't score like a 1st line center everyone will want his head as well.
- kgrpitt

I don't think there are that many people that want Sutter's head exactly. I think there is a difference between not liking someone and not wanting to overpay someone. I am fine if Sutter stays as our 3rd line center, what I am not fine with is giving him $4 million/year, which is what he was rumored to be looking for if I remember correctly. And I think most people are saying the same thing they can take him or leave him, depending on the price. Obviously there are some exceptions, looking at you Bartley.

I don't think there are that many people that want Sutter's head exactly. I think there is a difference between not liking someone and not wanting to overpay someone. I am fine if Sutter stays as our 3rd line center, what I am not fine with is giving him $4 million/year, which is what he was rumored to be looking for if I remember correctly. And I think most people are saying the same thing they can take him or leave him, depending on the price. Obviously there are some exceptions, looking at you Bartley.
- PensFan1103

Yeah that is understandable. We can't afford him at 4 nor would I want to sign him at that. I like Goc when we traded for him and we never really got to see him get comfortable with the Pens system before the injury.

I'm not saying Goc's not as good. Just saying that it seems to be the same exact story every year. People don't understand what a third line center is and when they don't score every game they become the escape goat. I'm saying no matter who the 3rd line center is if they don't have a supporting cast then they will not live up to expectation. If you are a third line center usually means you don't have a enough skill to 'elevate' anchors.
- kgrpitt

I took a much needed hiatus from this board while Staal was traded, so I have no idea how loony everything got. What I do know is that Sutters first year here he had Kennedy and Cooke and they weren't as good defensively as before. He had the players surrounding him then! This coming year he will have the players once again surrounding him, in my eyes he hasn't proven capable of a third line shut-down role. The third line is specifically for defensive situations to free up the top six to work in the offensive zone. He's simply not that guy. I have no idea how he fits with this team, but it shouldn't be at four mil, or even three.

Now that the team has a stronger top six, sutter can put up 40-50 points. He's talented. Cut the kid a break. Guess every team has their scapegoat...

Should be worried about your below average goalie making 5mil and collapsing in the playoffs year after year rather than crying about your third line center wanting market value money

Now that the team has a stronger top six, sutter can put up 40-50 points. He's talented. Cut the kid a break. Guess every team has their scapegoat...
- jchst22

Ignorance is bliss!

Should be worried about your below average goalie making 5mil and collapsing in the playoffs year after year rather than crying about your third line center wanting market value money
- jchst22

Ditto!

Ignorance is bliss!
- Topshelf Mountain

Is sutter outstanding? No. Would I take him over 25 other third line centers? No question. The thought that Goc can replace him is an insult

Is sutter outstanding? No. Would I take him over 25 other third line centers? No question. The thought that Goc can replace him is an insult
- jchst22

Santa Clause isn't real.

Now that the team has a stronger top six, sutter can put up 40-50 points. He's talented. Cut the kid a break. Guess every team has their scapegoat...
- jchst22

How is our top 6 stronger? Our bottom 6 is definitely stronger, but the top 6 lost Jokinen and Neal, while only adding Hornqvist. I like Hornqvist as a better fit than Neal, but I don't think he makes up the loss of both of them. And again, not sure how many times it needs to be said for some of you with reading comprehension deficits, but nobody is saying Sutter is bad, just that he is not worth $4 million per year. I don't see why if you don't want to overpay somebody means that they are a scapegoat.

The top six is stronger by default. They no longer have to play a shutdown role. Plenty of good players on this team as it is.

What team doesn't have one?
- Topshelf Mountain

Uh...ours?

Should be worried about your below average goalie making 5mil and collapsing in the playoffs year after year rather than crying about your third line center wanting market value money
- jchst22

I'd actually give MAF a 'B' for last post season. He was good enough for us to beat the Rangers and really didn't collapse at all. The rest of his team wasn't good enough to beat Lundqvist and the Rangers though.

The top six is stronger by default. They no longer have to play a shutdown role. Plenty of good players on this team as it is.
- Topshelf Mountain

Not sure I can buy that argument. Dupuis is definitely an upgrade over Gibbons but also has potential question marks depending on his recovery, and Hornqvist is a better fit than Neal, but won't put up the same amount of offense, so I grade that as an upgrade but not a big one. But we are hoping Bennett or Kapanen come in and replace what Jokinen provided? That is a lot to ask of either of them. Also, while Spaling-Sutter-Downie will be better than Pyatt, Glass, and other turnstiles, are we confident they will be able to handle a shutdown role? That is a big leap. I am confident that they will now be a reliable bottom 6 and at least NHL caliber, but to say they can now take on other teams top lines is asking a lot.

Should be worried about your below average goalie making 5mil and collapsing in the playoffs year after year rather than crying about your third line center wanting market value money
- jchst22

Fleury wasn't the problem. The fact that they scored 3 goals in 3 games where they could have eliminated the Rangers was.

Not sure I can buy that argument. Dupuis is definitely an upgrade over Gibbons but also has potential question marks depending on his recovery, and Hornqvist is a better fit than Neal, but won't put up the same amount of offense, so I grade that as an upgrade but not a big one. But we are hoping Bennett or Kapanen come in and replace what Jokinen provided? That is a lot to ask of either of them. Also, while Spaling-Sutter-Downie will be better than Pyatt, Glass, and other turnstiles, are we confident they will be able to handle a shutdown role? That is a big leap. I am confident that they will now be a reliable bottom 6 and at least NHL caliber, but to say they can now take on other teams top lines is asking a lot.
- PensFan1103

You know, Neal had very similar pre-penguin stats as Hornqvist does.

Name GP G A PTS P/GM G/GM
Neal--214 72 59 131 -8 0.61 0.33
Hornq-363 106 110 216 35 0.59 0.29

You know, Neal had very similar pre-penguin stats as Hornqvist does.

Name GP G A PTS P/GM G/GM
Neal--214 72 59 131 -8 0.61 0.33
Hornq-363 106 110 216 35 0.59 0.29
- icedog97

And the other thing is, I think Malkin can score more with Hornqvist to make up for the fact that Hornqvist might score a little less than Neal.

Even strength goals against while on the ice, regular season 2014:

Crosby: 63
Malkin: 46
J. Staal: 40
Sutter: 35

Even strength goals against while on the ice, regular season 2014:

Crosby: 63
Malkin: 46
J. Staal: 40
Sutter: 35
- hardnosed

Not arguing for or against you, but:

Even strength ice time per game:

Crosby - 17:10
Malkin - 15:27
J. Staal - 15:04
Sutter - 12:21

And the other thing is, I think Malkin can score more with Hornqvist to make up for the fact that Hornqvist might score a little less than Neal.
- hardnosed

I agree. Assuming Horny is with Malkin...part of me thinks mgmt want to give the best wingers to Sid.

Uh...ours?
- icedog97

Crosbys line has done it for the last two years.

Crosbys line has done it for the last two years.
- Topshelf Mountain

That's not a shutdown line though. That's a "you are our best players so you need to score all the goals and shutdown their top opponents" line.

Even strength goals against while on the ice, regular season 2014:

Crosby: 63
Malkin: 46
J. Staal: 40
Sutter: 35
- hardnosed

That's one sided. Sutters minutes were protected.

That's not a shutdown line though. That's a "you are our best players so you need to score all the goals and shutdown their top opponents" line.
- YouMeAndDupuis9

Exactly! The third line is supposed to do what Crosbys line has done for two years. Sutter hasn't been capable of it. His minutes are guarded and it takes away from the top six.