I've talked about this elsewhere with others, but often afraid to bring it up here because of the pendulum of fan emotions that are on display. So here goes...honest question, what would be a fair return for Kane?

I would like to hear 'in the ballpark' suggestions, such as Cody Hodgson, Mark Pysyk and a 1st round pick. Or something of that variety (just using Buffalo, because their fans have a chub for 88). I've thought about this and I'm not really sure what a good return would be.

Before anyone goes ape, I'm not saying that Buffalo is trading for Kane, that is a fair return, or even that the Hawks are shopping Kane. We have to mention this for some folks around here.

And to your point, John, it is moot.
- eburgio

2015 1st Overall would get it done for me. Maybe even 2nd Overall. After that, You'd probably have to throw in a prospect or two and at least one top 6 forward.

And Jabbar got traded and....

And they all got traded for reasons other than getting value back or improving the team they left: Ruth went to NY because the Red Sox owner needed cash, Jabbar wanted out of a one-horse town, Gretzke moved for his wife's career and to move to a bigger city (IIRC) - you can't get enough back for a franchise-defining superstar to make the trade worthwhile as a normal trade.

Don't know that Kane has the same impact on the Hawks as Gretzke, Jabbar, Ruth had on their teams, but it would be difficult for one team out there to have enough to make a deal worthwhile for the Hawks.
- StLBravesFan

Can't disagree with any of this, except to add the above players didn't play in a cap league. There is a different variable in play in this situation.

If I had to bet a dollar on whether the Hawks would get back fair value for Kane, I'd say no. But there are exceptions as in the Herschel Walker trade.

I think the idea of trading Kane is pie in the sky anyhow as long as StanBowPops&McD run the show. They've shown they will travel the least turbulent waters in personnel matters.

I'm not saying to def trade Kane. Just saying, it also might not be a disaster for the team on the ice, depending, as you say, on the return. Probably a moot point anyway.
- John Jaeckel

I understand your caution about needing courage to stick around to defend the idea of trading Kane.

There are some people here who would be horrified at the idea of trading Kane for MacKinnon. If your going to have two elite players and both are going to earn max dollars it is better that they be at different age points in their careers. You don't want both at max performance and dollars at the same time. The age difference between Mario and Jagomir was about perfect. One was the superstar, leader. The other the heir apparent.

It seems to me that last year may have been very close to the high point of the Hawks talent level. Raw peak performance is in the area of 25.5 years of age for elite NHL forwards. After age 28 the performance drops off dramatically. Pens peaked nearly four years ago and every year they move farther away from winning everything.

I would say the following: an established top 6 forward (though not a superstar), a fringe player/prospect with upside (like say Bjugstad or Teravainen), another prospect (like say Danault or Hartman), and a first round pick
- John Jaeckel

I think I'd want a little more in return.

Kane is one of the premiere players in the league, is only 25 years old (still has plenty of time in his prime), has two cups, and is essentially a lock for around 30 goals and 50 assists (with a legitimate center he'd do even better).


The return (at least in my opinion) would have to be a top-six star, a top-six forward, a very good prospect, and two 1st round picks.

(i.e if we were to trade with the Oilers, I'd want Eberle, Yakupov, Klefbom, and 2 firsts.)

Maybe I'm asking for too much, but players like Kane don't grow on trees!

So is his talent level. Hjalmarsson at $4.1 for the next 5 years is an absolute steal, making him virtually untouchable as a trade candidate.
- Ogilthorpe2

I get that, but if Chicago is looking for cap releif, then the return for Leddy would be a 2nd/3rd round pick .... a body going back to Chicago does not see any cap relief.

I would say the following: an established top 6 forward (though not a superstar), a fringe player/prospect with upside (like say Bjugstad or Teravainen), another prospect (like say Danault or Hartman), and a first round pick
- John Jaeckel

If the Sabres get McDavid or Eichl next year would Murray move 1 of them for Kane? Could the Hawks turn that down? They are supposedly both McKinnon class talents.

What we see with the Penguins is that 2 players CAN be shut down in the playoffs. If the Hawks do not think they can bring the depth scoring they had in the cup years paying K/T at this level than the trade needs to happen. However, I am not sure this will be the case. Cap increases or even 1-2 players emerging from the system may be enough to get them thru the 2-3 year crunch.

What they cannot let happen is pieces like Sharp and Seabs simply walking as UFAs. They need to be moved for returns when the time comes. Sharp could be this year. Seabs would be a tougher choice dependent on pending UFA's to replace him and/or the return coming back in trade.

We do not want to see a replay of the Wings model in marrying older players. Sharp cannot become our Cleary or Franzon.

Hey JJ,
I have been reading here for a while thank you for all the information you have passed on you do a great job! and yeah this is my 1st post here. Do you know if Dineen is more of a Power play guru or more of a defensive systems coach?
what's up everyone

My own personal feeling on Kane's value to the Hawks (as both a longtime Hawks AND NHL fan).

On the ice, a really good player most of the time, not physical, can be "checked" out of a game here and there, BUT a great player in big playoff games. Kane def has the ability, when he wants to, to take over games.

And that last part, to me, is the part that would be hardest to "replace."

What is interesting to me is I actually think Teravainen might end up being a very similar player to Kane, and possibly as a RW. Not as dynamic. But with similar skills and a similar overall game.

Everyone has anointed Teravainen as the future 2C, and while that's an obvious organizational need and he has come up as a C, he has played a lot at W too.

What also doesn't get talked about is, if you believe growth in the cap wiil make these contracts easier for the Hawks to digest—it will do the same for other teams. meaning, in 3-4 years, Kane's deal might not be untradeable.

Finally, I suspect at age 32-33, Kane might have more tread left on his tire than Toews. Toews is a warrior in the weight room and on the ice, but he has taken some big hits and his style of play will wear a body down over time.

'Hawks a surprise team in the race for Tyler Myers according to Ek.

Oh god no.

Hey JJ,
I have been reading here for a while thank you for all the information you have passed on you do a great job! and yeah this is my 1st post here. Do you know if Dineen is more of a Power play guru or more of a defensive systems coach?
what's up everyone
- BGKarras

Thanks, as I recall Dineen was a heart and soul type player in his day. Not sure what he has focused on as a coach, but has been a head coach in numerous situations now.

While that may be true that players can produce at a high level into their 30s, they're still better players when younger. Nobody here will tell you that Marian Hossa is not still a fantastic player, but the fact remains that he had 30+ goals 7 times through age 30 (and 40 three times) and only once since. He's also missed more games in the last 4 seasons due to injury than in the previous 11 combined.

Herschel Walker was traded by a 1 win terrible team, not a contender two years removed from the Super Bowl and one year removed from an overtime loss in a conference championship game. Likewise, when Eric Lindros was dealt for a ridiculous haul, it's not like Quebec/Colorado was a team with an open championship window.
- Sandus

Again we agree for the most part. No doubt a 27 yr old Kane will be better than a 32 yr old Kane. And if anyone will mirror Hossa as far needing days off and getting injured in their middle 30's it will be Toews, as their games are very similar.

No the Hawks ain't like the Cowboys in that they are devoid of any real talent and need to move a top guy for a bunch of it. That's part of the point, in theory the Hawks could afford to move a superstar because they have plenty of very good players to offset the loss while they presumably get elite prospects coming back and picks, ala the Walker trade and of course get the cap relief they desperately need. In other words instead of a rebuild (Cowboys) the Hawks, and others like them, will retool as their cap situation dictates.

A lot of things need to be rethought in the sport due to the cap, one being if you get the best player in a trade you probably won it. It seems cap flexibility/space is now as important as any other variable in the sport. Getting usable pieces spread out over time and cap relief that goes along with it can be better than getting the better player in a trade now, depending on the individual team's circumstances at a particular time.

There is no room for error and you'd better draft well and have a roster in relation to cap compliance plan 3-4-5 yrs out.

The sport has changed since they no longer allow the cap hit to be spread out over 10-15 yrs. The thinking has to change too.

My own personal feeling on Kane's value to the Hawks (as both a longtime Hawks AND NHL fan).

On the ice, a really good player most of the time, not physical, can be "checked" out of a game here and there, BUT a great player in big playoff games. Kane def has the ability, when he wants to, to take over games.

And that last part, to me, is the part that would be hardest to "replace."

What is interesting to me is I actually think Teravainen might end up being a very similar player to Kane, and possibly as a RW. Not as dynamic. But with similar skills and a similar overall game.

Everyone has anointed Teravainen as the future 2C, and while that's an obvious organizational need and he has come up as a C, he has played a lot at W too.

What also doesn't get talked about is, if you believe growth in the cap wiil make these contracts easier for the Hawks to digest—it will do the same for other teams. meaning, in 3-4 years, Kane's deal might not be untradeable.

Finally, I suspect at age 32-33, Kane might have more tread left on his tire than Toews. Toews is a warrior in the weight room and on the ice, but he has taken some big hits and his style of play will wear a body down over time.
- John Jaeckel

Would love for a Center down in Rockford to develop and jump into that 2C spot, to allow TT to play RW. Not that they are asking my opinion on the matter, but I'd feel more comfortable with him at RW than Center. A RW arsenal of Kane - TT - Hossa would be a little scary.

'Hawks a surprise team in the race for Tyler Myers according to Ek.

Oh god no.
- TommyHawk

Literally makes no sense for almost every reason possible, especially when you consider where he would fit AND his contract/cap hit

Literally makes no sense for almost every reason possible, especially when you consider where he would fit AND his contract/cap hit
- FourFeathers773

Not to mention that he has basically been declining the past two seasons. He's still 24 and has plenty of time and will likely recover, but he's not worth the $5.8 mil or whatever cap hit it is, albeit with the Blackhawks cap situation as is.

Don't know if it's been mentioned yet but

Hawks hire Kevin Dineen as new asst. coach...

http://www.csnchicago.com...ineen-new-assistant-coach
- DK002

Steeger upon hearing this news...

'Hawks a surprise team in the race for Tyler Myers according to Ek.

Oh god no.
- TommyHawk

Myers, with the right coaching, could become a Pronger/Chara type defenseman. He is 24 years old. He looked like a bust in 12-13 but showed real flashes late this season.

I think anything is possible but Buffalo is not taking a Sharp plus a package for Myers. Absolutely no way the Hawks are sending assets like Saad and TT for Myers (which is what Murray would want).

Makes me wonder though. Sabres or Isles number 1 next year plus Myers for Kane? End up with Myers and McDavid or Eichl.....

Someone earlier wrote "pie in the sky".... Noting better to do.

Thanks, as I recall Dineen was a heart and soul type player in his day. Not sure what he has focused on as a coach, but has been a head coach in numerous situations now.
- John Jaeckel

Dineen has shown an ability to read a situation and adapt. And at different levels, even with different genders. Give him a job and give him a chance to work it and he has come through in the past. Don't think he is a guy who will just copy what everyone else in the league is doing. I'd like to see him get the PP for a year.

'Hawks a surprise team in the race for Tyler Myers according to Ek.

Oh god no.
- TommyHawk

The Hawks have been coming up a lot on Eklund's dart board recently. Maybe he should move the teams around.

And Hercshel Walker was traded too for what, 5 picks and 5 players that eventually led to the Cowboys winning a couple Super Bowls. And if memory serves the Oilers won the cup the year following trading Gretzky.

I'll use Hossa as an example of players being very productive in their 30's and Kieth too. I do agree I'd rather have a 27 yr old Kane than a 32 year old Kane. And I'd also agree with anyone who said Kane and Toews at 30 will have a lot of NHL mileage on them, more than most any NHL player at a similar age.

Again IMO if Kane and Toews avoid a serious injury they will still be elite players into their early 30's.
- Mr Ricochet

The Chicago Cardinals traded Ollie Matson to the LA Rams for 9 players, the nine players sucked and Matson was past his prime.

Again we agree for the most part. No doubt a 27 yr old Kane will be better than a 32 yr old Kane. And if anyone will mirror Hossa as far needing days off and getting injured in their middle 30's it will be Toews, as their games are very similar.

No the Hawks ain't like the Cowboys in that they are devoid of any real talent and need to move a top guy for a bunch of it. That's part of the point, in theory the Hawks could afford to move a superstar because they have plenty of very good players to offset the loss while they presumably get elite prospects coming back and picks, ala the Walker trade and of course get the cap relief they desperately need. In other words instead of a rebuild (Cowboys) the Hawks, and others like them, will retool as their cap situation dictates.

A lot of things need to be rethought in the sport due to the cap, one being if you get the best player in a trade you probably won it. It seems cap flexibility/space is now as important as any other variable in the sport. Getting usable pieces spread out over time and cap relief that goes along with it can be better than getting the better player in a trade now, depending on the individual team's circumstances at a particular time.

There is no room for error and you'd better draft well and have a roster in relation to cap compliance plan 3-4-5 yrs out.

The sport has changed since they no longer allow the cap hit to be spread out over 10-15 yrs. The thinking has to change too.
- Mr Ricochet

I think the question you're getting at, and indeed it's pretty much the question at the root of all of this cap controversy, is simply: how valuable are Patrick Kane and Jonathan Toews? Is Kane worth more as himself or as 3-4 players making a combined $10.5 million?

I think it's a legitimate question, and your view of it really depends on how you see a team being built and how much faith your have in your drafting and development. Detroit has made the playoffs countless years in a row by simply keeping the players they know make their team strong, at any price, and then bolstering them with bargain free agents and young players who have to struggle through the system to even get a sniff of NHL play. Other teams, like say the St. Louis Blues, have risen to the top echelon of the league by accumulating a large quantity of second tier talent at reasonable prices, and rolling 3-4 fairly interchangeable lines. The Kings, for the most part, have done something similar, with really only Doughty and Kopitar being legitimate stars at their positions.

Something else to think about is that talent creates depth. A second line center who is just average becomes a very good third or fourth line center when you have a far superior player above him.

So really, which method is the best? Top heavy and bringing on the young guys/replacement players and then pass the mantle when it's time, or being a better full team with a higher "talent average" than other teams and having lots of similar contracts. I think the decision about trading Kane or Sharp or anyone for that matter rests on which philosophy you believe is right.

>Look around the NHL, most players after their initial league growing pains, plateau and rarely get better every year
>Kane DOES get better every year because he trains seriously every offseason to be better
>Kane has yet to hit his ceiling as a player and won't for many more years
>Toews is the game's best leader and like Kane, a proven winner -- a player who makes everyone around him a better player
>Nobody is going anywhere
>The Hawks have one major upcoming cap mission to solve -- ink Saad before he gets offer-sheeted for crazy money
>Comparisons to the Hawks & Pens really don't hold water -- Pens goalie became wildly inconsistent, Pens lineup not as deep -- especially on defense, Pens haven't been that strong recently in the playoffs in a super-weak Eastern Conference

Toews isn't 4 million per year better than Bergeron

He's better, not 4 million better
- RoloTahmasee

So he's 2 million better? 2.5 million better? Please tell me your logic. I love when people make these dumb statements.

A premium was paid for Toews "leadership"

He's good.... But not 10.5 million per good
- RoloTahmasee

I can't agree with that.
Toews has smart play making ability, a decent shot, good points totals, is the BEST two-way center in the game, makes clutch plays happen out of thin air, has earned every single award and championship (NHL and international) that matters.

And he leads by example... and he's very young still.

I think Toews is about the only player in the league I'd trade Stamkos straight up for.

Literally makes no sense for almost every reason possible, especially when you consider where he would fit AND his contract/cap hit
- FourFeathers773

It's possible that it could in some way. Both Myers and Leddy are still young, and Myers is a right handed shot and has a deal locked in at $5.5 million per until the end of the '18-'19 season.

>Look around the NHL, most players after their initial league growing pains, plateau and rarely get better every year
>Kane DOES get better every year because he trains seriously every offseason to be better
>Kane has yet to hit his ceiling as a player and won't for many more years
>Toews is the game's best leader and like Kane, a proven winner -- a player who makes everyone around him a better player
>Nobody is going anywhere
>The Hawks have one major upcoming cap mission to solve -- ink Saad before he gets offer-sheeted for crazy money
>Comparisons to the Hawks & Pens really don't hold water -- Pens goalie became wildly inconsistent, Pens lineup not as deep -- especially on defense, Pens haven't been that strong recently in the playoffs in a super-weak Eastern Conference
- SnapitUpstairs

Funny, thats Crawfords biggest criticism...