The Flyers didn't lose to the Rangers because of a lack of secondary scoring. they lost because they were badly outplayed at 5 on 5.

You need the team to be able to move the puck up ice and be able to generate an attack to score. You can have ten or fifteen 20 goal scorers, but if you can't get the puck out of your own end, you're not going to score.

That's the big issue, not needing a top line goal scorer. It's being a much better 200 foot team.

Do we have that many strong possession players? We traded a strong possession player for a weak one
- PhillySportsGuy

It's hard to judge possession numbers when he played injured and against top competition in a shut down role last year.

46.4 CF% with a QOC of 29% while playing injured throughout most of the year really isn't all THAT bad.

bSchenn-Giroux-Voracek
Read-Couturier-Simmonds
Umberger-Laughton-Akeson
Raffl-LeCavalier-Bellamere

Also good
- mochoson

I would also consider 4th line vinny with akeson and another capable winger and even out the minutes a bit.

Yup. And?
- FlyersSteve118

Considering there's usually 6 scoring wingers on each team? You're basically asking the team to go out and trade for Patrick Marleau, who had a whopping 8 more points.

Only thing I've done is called your statements idiotic, which they are. I've been called much worse on these boards.

I don't want anything and I don't care if an army supports your "case". It still doesn't make a lick of sense.
- mochoson

My case makes sense, it couldn't be more obvious. We disagree, it doesn't mean my point doesn't make sense.

Do we have that many strong possession players? We traded a strong possession player for a weak one
- PhillySportsGuy

Based on last year, no.

However, by changing things around and better utilization of players, I think they can be a better possession team, even losing Hartnell.

It's hard to judge possession numbers when he played injured and against top competition in a shut down role last year.

46.4 CF% with a QOC of 29% while playing injured throughout most of the year really isn't all THAT bad.
- FlyersSteve118

And THIS is how you use possession stats, gentlemen

I think they're banking on Schenn and/or Couts developing into that 1-2 punch with Giroux. Hopefully, next year is that year.
- PhillySportsGuy

It's possible and we're all crossing our fingers but it's yet to be seen. Fair statement?

Considering there's usually 6 scoring wingers on each team? You're basically asking the team to go out and trade for Patrick Marleau, who had a whopping 8 more points.
- mochoson

There are 20 top line wingers ahead of him. That put him in the bottom third of NHL top line wingers. Do you realize that?

Edit: I LOVE Voracek, but if they had a legitimate threat on that line he would put up WAYYYYY more points.

You would think his production might be higher by playing with the 3rd best point producing center in the league.
- SuperSchennBros

No, I think his production would be higher if he was playing with someone like Couturier and Schenn 5v5 and not seeing as many hard defensive match-ups while remaining with G on the PP.

If it remains status quo, and Ott comes on board

Raffl-Giroux-Lecavalier
Umberger-Schenn-Voracek
Read-Couturier-Simmonds
Bellamare-Ott-Akeson

I think this gives us the best chance of rolling out a 4 line team.

I'm banging my fist to see Simmonds/Coots together again, they were very effective a couple seasons ago

Raffl and Giroux can drag Lecavalier up and down the ice.

If it remains status quo, and Ott comes on board

Raffl-Giroux-Lecavalier
Umberger-Schenn-Voracek
Read-Couturier-Simmonds
Bellamare-Ott-Akeson

I think this gives us the best chance of rolling out a 4 line team.
- Just5

I like Raffl but the kid doesn't give me the vibe that he can be counted on to put the puck into the net. Especially getting top line minutes. What made Giroux and Voracek effective was if you shut down G you had another threat to worry about.

Split those two up, and you eliminate your biggest strength. A one line 5 on 5 team they may be, but to weaken your biggest strength? Not in favour...

I am in favour of keeping players in long term pairs. Voracek and Giroux. Read and Couturier. Put the rest where it may be.

The Flyers didn't lose to the Rangers because of a lack of secondary scoring. they lost because they were badly outplayed at 5 on 5.

You need the team to be able to move the puck up ice and be able to generate an attack to score. You can have ten or fifteen 20 goal scorers, but if you can't get the puck out of your own end, you're not going to score.

That's the big issue, not needing a top line goal scorer. It's being a much better 200 foot team.
- Jsaquella

It was a bad match up for the Flyers. The Flyers still managed to take the Rangers 7 games. We weren't swept. We also took a number of bad penalties, which we don't want to overlook.

The Flyers didn't lose to the Rangers because of a lack of secondary scoring. they lost because they were badly outplayed at 5 on 5.

You need the team to be able to move the puck up ice and be able to generate an attack to score. You can have ten or fifteen 20 goal scorers, but if you can't get the puck out of your own end, you're not going to score.

That's the big issue, not needing a top line goal scorer. It's being a much better 200 foot team.
- Jsaquella

They were loosing the battles for the puck. Rangers much more speed. Ideally it would be nice to add speed, especially on the back end to get that breakout going. I still think they are too slow.

There are 20 top line wingers ahead of him. That put him in the bottom third of NHL top line wingers. Do you realize that?

Edit: I LOVE Voracek, but if they had a legitimate threat on that line he would put up WAYYYYY more points.
- FlyersSteve118

Thank you!

There are 20 top line wingers ahead of him. That put him in the bottom third of NHL top line wingers. Do you realize that?

Edit: I LOVE Voracek, but if they had a legitimate threat on that line he would put up WAYYYYY more points.
- FlyersSteve118

If your only counting guys listed as wingers, he's 18th in the league. I included O'Reilly and Mackinnon because they primarily played wing. I also miscounted, Jake was 20th in wingers in points.

He would be on the bottom third of league if all of those guys were on different teams, which they are not.

I don't look at it that way. Top lines have two wingers on them. If you do 2 per team, Jake is better than 2/3 of the wingers in the league, not the other way around.

As for the bold, I disagree entirely. I think Voracek puts up more point's with easier defensive match-ups playing with Schenn or Cooter while remaining with G on the PP.

It's hard to judge possession numbers when he played injured and against top competition in a shut down role last year.

46.4 CF% with a QOC of 29% while playing injured throughout most of the year really isn't all THAT bad.
- FlyersSteve118

Hartnells QoC was 29% also. The possession numbers of every top 6 forward on the flyers improved with Hartnell. It was the opposite with Umberger

And THIS is how you use possession stats, gentlemen
- mochoson

Yeah, not every player can be Sean Couturier and put up positive CF% playing shut down minutes. Kid is crazy good, with so much untapped skill left. I really hope he gets the second line center job next year so he can win himself a Selke trophy at 22.

Do we have that many strong possession players? We traded a strong possession player for a weak one
- PhillySportsGuy

This is an example of how Corsi is misunderstood. What's more accurate is that the Flyers traded a player who benefited possession wise from playing with Giroux and Voracek. And when players change teams and change who they play with, that has an effect on the players possession stats. It's not static. So it remains to be seen.

It was a bad match up for the Flyers. The Flyers still managed to take the Rangers 7 games. We weren't swept. We also took a number of bad penalties, which we don't want to overlook.
- SuperSchennBros

It was a bad matchup because the Rangers are much better at even strength than the Flyers were. The Flyers took a lot of penalties, but the Rangers didn't score many PPGs.

But the primary reason the Flyers couldn't score is that they got outplayed at 5 on 5 and didn't generate anywhere near as many chances as the Rangers. Even in the games they won, they got outshot at ES.

The only games they outshot the Rangers at ES were games 3 & 5, both losses where the extra shot came from score effects-in other words the Flyers being more aggressive on the attack due to being behind on the scoreboard

If your only counting guys listed as wingers, he's 18th in the league. I included O'Reilly and Mackinnon because they primarily played wing. I also miscounted, Jake was 20th in wingers in points.

He would be on the bottom third of league if all of those guys were on different teams, which they are not.

I don't look at it that way. Top lines have two wingers on them. If you do 2 per team, Jake is better than 2/3 of the wingers in the league, not the other way around.

As for the bold, I disagree entirely. I think Voracek puts up more point's with easier defensive match-ups playing with Schenn or Cooter while remaining with G on the PP.
- mochoson

Look at it this way.

Giroux was 3rd in the league in points. Giroux's linemate Jake Voracek was 38th in the league in points. More simple terms if you ask me. Granted there are some ties in there but he's still back there as far as offensive threats for top lines go.

Hartnells QoC was 29% also. The possession numbers of every top 6 forward on the flyers improved with Hartnell. It was the opposite with Umberger
- PhillySportsGuy

Don't get me wrong, I would much rather have Hartnell. I (frank)ing hate this trade so so much. I am just trying to be optimistic here.

There is no such thing as waivers or sending players down during the off season.
- MJL

Got it, so those 2 count during the off season.

Hartnells QoC was 29% also. The possession numbers of every top 6 forward on the flyers improved with Hartnell. It was the opposite with Umberger
- PhillySportsGuy

Again, different players and situations.