But you've been parsing my words for three pages because of this statement I made:



So, who besides Martin has been their best defenseman for the longest stretches of time? Letang had a nice year the year of the lockout, but Martin had his best year as a pro that year. And note that I didn't say he's "always" been their best defenseman, because that changes over time.

Even during his off year, Niskanen was struggling, Michalek was writing his ticket out of town, and Letang was out for much of the year. Orpik had a decent season for himself, but I wouldn't say he had a better year than Martin, though the criticism Martin took was partly due to salary and high expectations that he didn't meet that year.
- hardnosed

Ok, so starting in his second season...
2nd season Martin has his worst season and fans wanted to run him out of Pitt
3rd season...lockout shortened season Letang arguably Martin as noted by you
4th season oh he's hurt half the season so lets give it to Nisk then.

So, over 3 seasons no where do I see Martin having the consistency that you speak of. Thanks for making my argument

Fat bastardo on the X running his mouth again on Brian Gibbons. I still think as a fourth liner he is effective.

If you believe Engelland played well last year on defense, then you and I have a different definition of defense. He was slow, turned the puck over and was often beat or bumped off the puck.

- Thorny

Engo had 13 turnovers in 56 games. Despres had 15 turnovers in 34 games.

Nothing was ever confirmed about Despres, other than Disco Dan didn't like him. He wanted to play his pet. You keep on playing your Engellands of the world, while younger and better talent sits on the bench.
- Thorny

Here's a quick smattering:

“It's about patience. Every person's different in their own development. For him, it's just mental maturity. That sometimes takes a little bit longer than the physical stuff.”

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“We've all seen games of his in the NHL where it's like, ‘Look how good he's been tonight.' We've also seen games where it's like, ‘Well, he's going to get there with some more help.' ”

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Improved off-ice work habits and defensive focus that were evident during his season-opening stretch in the AHL did not carry over to his extended NHL opportunity. Also, coaches were disappointed with his response — pouting — in the days after he was a healthy scratch Dec. 29.

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Ok, so starting in his second season...
2nd season Martin has his worst season and fans wanted to run him out of Pitt

3rd season...lockout shortened season Letang arguably Martin as noted by you
4th season oh he's hurt half the season so lets give it to Nisk then.

So, over 3 seasons no where do I see Martin having the consistency that you speak of. Thanks for making my argument
- Reverend Killtaker

You're dancing around my post. Martin still was the Penguins' best defenseman a ton of nights during his down year. None of the D were great that year. IMO, Martin was better and certainly more well-rounded and consistent during the lockout year than Letang. It was after that year that fans clamored to trade Letang, which appears to mean something to you.

So which player has "consistently been the Penguins' best defenseman" if not Martin?

Letang?
Orpik?
Niskanen?
Scuderi?
Michalek?

If it's not Martin, who is it?

You're dancing around my post. Martin still was the Penguins' best defenseman a ton of nights during his down year. None of the D were great that year. IMO, Martin was better and certainly more well-rounded and consistent during the lockout year. It was after that year that fans clamored to trade Letang, which appears to mean something to you.

So which player has "consistently been the Penguins' best defenseman" if not Martin?

Letang?
Orpik?
Niskanen?
Scuderi?
Michalek?

If it's not Martin, who is it?
- hardnosed

Without consistency, there cannot be the "most consistent".

Engo had 13 turnovers in 56 games. Despres had 15 turnovers in 34 games.




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- hardnosed

It is hard to turn the puck over when you don't have it. Engo never controlled the puck because he always deferred to his other defender. Say what you want about Despres, but has Dan Bylsma ever worked to groom a young defender? The answer is no. Maatta fell into his lap and he wore him down with stupid scenarios late in the season. Despres is twice the player Engo is now and has the potential to be a legit top four defender.

Fat bastardo on the X running his mouth again on Brian Gibbons. I still think as a fourth liner he is effective.
- usethe1-2-2

Sorry but he is way more effective as a 1st line AHL player.

Fat bastardo on the X running his mouth again on Brian Gibbons. I still think as a fourth liner he is effective.
- usethe1-2-2

Cant blame him. Very over rated.

It is hard to turn the puck over when you don't have it. Engo never controlled the puck because he always deferred to his other defender. Say what you want about Despres, but has Dan Bylsma ever worked to groom a young defender? The answer is no. Maatta fell into his lap and he wore him down with stupid scenarios late in the season. Despres is twice the player Engo is now and has the potential to be a legit top four defender.
- usethe1-2-2

Thats not true, unless the newspaper says it true. Look, anyone who believes Engelland should be playing over Despres is crazy.

Sorry but he is way more effective as a 1st line AHL player.
- nbartley9

Can't argue that, but anytime you can add an element of speed and skill to a fourth line it doesn't hurt. He was a tenacious forechecker and had success killing penalties. I think he is a good bargain signing.

Well evidently Madden is reporting now that Martin does not like the direction of the team, his days are numbered.

Cant blame him. Very over rated.
- Magicmanmalkin

He might be overrated but he can play an effective game in limited time.

Well evidently Madden is reporting now that Martin does not like the direction of the team, his days are numbered.
- nbartley9

The Goc interview was fairly funny IMO. Hate him or love him, Madden is one of the better interviewers in Pitt sports.

He might be overrated but he can play an effective game in limited time.
- usethe1-2-2

3rd/4th line on a bad team sure. If youre the pens you want better players than gibbons on your NHL roster.

Trade martin sutter and depres and rob kuntiz and our 1st to the jets for kane ladd

It is hard to turn the puck over when you don't have it. Engo never controlled the puck because he always deferred to his other defender.
- usethe1-2-2

Same could be said about Despres. His better speed and puck skills were rendered moot because he lacked the confidence to use them.

Say what you want about Despres, but has Dan Bylsma ever worked to groom a young defender? The answer is no. Maatta fell into his lap and he wore him down with stupid scenarios late in the season.
- usethe1-2-2

Goligoski? Niskanen? Letang?

Despres is twice the player Engo is now and has the potential to be a legit top four defender.
- usethe1-2-2

I don't even think he was the better player last year, and organizationally you simply don't hand playing time to poor workers based on their potential. You make them earn their spot by learning to work in the AHL.

Can't argue that, but anytime you can add an element of speed and skill to a fourth line it doesn't hurt. He was a tenacious forechecker and had success killing penalties. I think he is a good bargain signing.
- usethe1-2-2

Well in a way it kind of can, I want a blood and guts/dirt and grit, and Gibbons doesn't have any of that.

Same could be said about Despres. His better speed and puck skills were rendered moot because he lacked the confidence to use them.



Goligoski? Niskanen? Letang?



I don't even think he was the better player last year, and organizationally you simply don't hand playing time to poor workers based on their potential. You make them earn their spot by learning to work in the AHL.
- hardnosed

Rierden worked with Letang and Niskanen, Goligoski was shipped off before he even grew in our system. The poor worker comments fall again on speculation. For all we know Bylsma didn't like working with players he had to groom. He wanted everything all ready there, which is why he favored less talented players who all ready had a game peaked. They are easier to work with. They also don't provide the high end potential which is a big reason he was fired.

Well in a way it kind of can, I want a blood and guts/dirt and grit, and Gibbons doesn't have any of that.
- nbartley9

He doesn't, no, but if you have two linemates around him like a Comeau and Spaling, then you won't need yet another guy to throw the body around. I am a guy that prefers balance on each line not just one line that does one thing really strong. That is where we differ a bit.

Rierden worked with Letang and Niskanen, Goligoski was shipped off before he even grew in our system. The poor worker comments fall again on speculation. For all we know Bylsma didn't like working with players he had to groom. He wanted everything all ready there, which is why he favored less talented players who all ready had a game peaked. They are easier to work with. They also don't provide the high end potential which is a big reason he was fired.
- usethe1-2-2

It's not speculation:

Improved off-ice work habits and defensive focus that were evident during his season-opening stretch in the AHL did not carry over to his extended NHL opportunity. Also, coaches were disappointed with his response — pouting — in the days after he was a healthy scratch Dec. 29.

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I don't care if it's Rossi - the Penguins would have defended Despres against an accusation like that if it weren't true. And as I posted Hynes talked about his immaturity, and Fitzgerald talked about his need for continued development.

And Bylsma played Despres in 85 games the last three years. It's Despres' own fault that he didn't make the most of his opportunity.

Rierden worked with Letang and Niskanen, Goligoski was shipped off before he even grew in our system.
- usethe1-2-2

So wouldn't it be Rierden's fault for not developing defensemen? And Bylsma wasn't Goligoski's coach at WBS?

It's not speculation:



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I don't care if it's Rossi - the Penguins would have defended Despres against an accusation like that if it weren't true. And as I posted Hynes talked about his immaturity, and Fitzgerald talked about his need for continued development.

And Bylsma played Despres in 85 games the last three years. It's Despres' own fault that he didn't make the most of his opportunity.
- hardnosed

I think Rossi is nothing but a puppet of the organization and I can't stand him so I don't care what he has to say. Despres was grossly mishandled by this organization to date and that is all that matters.

He doesn't, no, but if you have two linemates around him like a Comeau and Spaling, then you won't need yet another guy to throw the body around. I am a guy that prefers balance on each line not just one line that does one thing really strong. That is where we differ a bit.
- usethe1-2-2

I agree, and it's something the Rangers took advantage of with their lineup this past year. It's how you enable the coach to make adjustments, having different skill sets on different lines. You don't need 5 Brian Boyles or 5 Mats Zuccarellos, but having one of each helps to create a diverse lineup that can beat multiple teams.

The Penguins forwards haven't added much speed this offseason...Gibbons could remedy that.

So wouldn't it be Rierden's fault for not developing defensemen? And Bylsma wasn't Goligoski's coach at WBS?
- hardnosed

Rierden can only work with them if they stay up here and play and Bylsma never wanted them up here.

As for the Goligoski part, he was his coach for half a season before Bylsma joined the big club.

Despres was grossly mishandled by this organization to date and that is all that matters.
- usethe1-2-2

If he builds off his WBS playoff performance and comes into camp in shape and ready to work, they've handled it perfectly.

If not, then the only mishandling that occurred would be drafting him despite the rumors in the first place, or not trading him early on at the first signs of laziness or being a malcontent.