Go to Grabovski's Wikipedia page....

"Born in Potsdam, Germany"


- cap1681

The Pittsburgh Wehrmact will roll through the Atlantic.

Engelland is gone, not sure why he keeps getting brought up.

Dumoulin/Harrington/Samuelsson will never be the player Martin is, especially as rookies.

The Penguins' best chance to win the Cup next year is to hold onto Paul Martin, he's consistently been their best defenseman. If he walks, so be it.
- hardnosed

I bring up Engelland, because you had no problem with him playing, when he clearly didn't give the Pens the best chance at winning.

Ok, I suggest wanted to make sure you were definitely picking and choosing the data you want to use while ignoring the actual data that would counter your conclusions.
- Reverend Killtaker

Do you believe that Crosby is the player that he was during the playoffs, or that his performance was more of an anomaly?

Martin had a sub-par season, then two quality seasons in a row. Weighting his two most recent seasons above one anomalous year is common sense.

Do you believe that Crosby is the player that he was during the playoffs, or that his performance was more of an anomaly?

Martin had a sub-par season, then two quality seasons in a row. Weighting his two most recent seasons above one anomalous year is common sense.
- hardnosed

Hey its your argument not mine...Crosby was never mentioned Only Martin in that he was consistently the best d-man on the Pens.

I bring up Engelland, because you had no problem with him playing, when he clearly didn't give the Pens the best chance at winning.
- Thorny

Playing over Despres? Nope, I had no problem with that. Engelland played well in a variety of roles, he deserved to be rewarded with PT.

Despres wasn't ready, and was being problematic off the ice. You can't just play your highest rated guys on NHL 14 without considering issues regarding intangibles. Hopefully Despres took his lumps and returns this year hungry and driven and ready to grab onto a regular role and not let go, like Maatta did last year.

Hey its your argument not mine...Crosby was never mentioned Only Martin in that he was consistently the best d-man on the Pens.
- Reverend Killtaker

Which he has been, and which he is likely to be next year.

Which he has been, and which he is likely to be next year.
- hardnosed

- Reverend Killtaker

- hardnosed

The guy hasn't played a 70 game seasons since 2011-12. In his 4 season stint and he had a horrendous year at that where everyone wanted to throw him to the wolves because of his contract that he was signed to. He's injury plagued beyond belief, but he is our most consistent d-man.

You want to say the most skilled, fine. But consistent he's is not when his last two seasons consisted of appx 35 games each with a predecessor that was the worst of his career.

The guy hasn't played a 70 game seasons since 2011-12. In his 4 season stint and he had a horrendous year at that where everyone wanted to throw him to the wolves because of his contract that he was signed to. He's injury plagued beyond belief, but he is our most consistent d-man.

You want to say the most skilled, fine. But consistent he's is not when his last two seasons consisted of appx 35 games each with a predecessor that was the worst of his career.
- Reverend Killtaker

You do remember that the regular season was only 48 games in 2012-2013, right? Because you're basically saying that Martin missed a lot of time last year, which we already knew.

Outside of that, he's played in 87% of the games the Penguins have played since he's been here.

He's missed fewer games than Letang/Orpik/Niskanen over those four years.

You do remember that the regular season was only 48 games in 2012-2013, right? Because you're basically saying that Martin missed a lot of time last year, which we already knew.

Outside of that, he's played in 87% of the games the Penguins have played since he's been here.

He's missed fewer games than Letang/Orpik/Niskanen over those four years.
- hardnosed

Consistent would be over a period of time...which he has not been. Bad season, followed by a shortened season, followed by a shortened season. You string 2-3 full seasons of strong play, then he was consistently the best -d-man. But having a horrible season followed by a good shortened season followed by an injury plagued season isn't consistent.

Martin + Scuderi to Wings for Nyquist

You do remember that the regular season was only 48 games in 2012-2013, right? Because you're basically saying that Martin missed a lot of time last year, which we already knew.

Outside of that, he's played in 87% of the games the Penguins have played since he's been here.

He's missed fewer games than Letang/Orpik/Niskanen over those four years.
- hardnosed

He's missed 71 games in 4 seasons with Pittsburgh.

Consistent would be over a period of time...which he has not been. Bad season, followed by a shortened season, followed by a shortened season. You string 2-3 full seasons of strong play, then he was consistently the best -d-man. But having a horrible season followed by a good shortened season followed by an injury plagued season isn't consistent.
- Reverend Killtaker

And whom among the remaining defenders has been more consistent, in your opinion?

And whom among the remaining defenders has been more consistent, in your opinion?
- hardnosed

Thats not my argument to make. My argument is that he isn't consistent.

And whom among the remaining defenders has been more consistent, in your opinion?
- hardnosed

Scuds! You guys realize we all cheer for the same team?

Playing over Despres? Nope, I had no problem with that. Engelland played well in a variety of roles, he deserved to be rewarded with PT.

Despres wasn't ready, and was being problematic off the ice. You can't just play your highest rated guys on NHL 14 without considering issues regarding intangibles. Hopefully Despres took his lumps and returns this year hungry and driven and ready to grab onto a regular role and not let go, like Maatta did last year.
- hardnosed

If you believe Engelland played well last year on defense, then you and I have a different definition of defense. He was slow, turned the puck over and was often beat or bumped off the puck. He was no threat with a breakout pass from the zone. You want to play that over a kid that already has more talent and way more upside because of what you heard. Nothing was ever confirmed about Despres, other than Disco Dan didn't like him. He wanted to play his pet. You keep on playing your Engellands of the world, while younger and better talent sits on the bench. Then again, you are happy being within one game of a EC Finals.

And whom among the remaining defenders has been more consistent, in your opinion?
- hardnosed

Actually I will bite on this...NONE OF THEM HAVE BEEN!!!

Grabovski was asking for 5 years and 25M from Washington. They should have done it and not signed Orpik. I can't imagine him coming down from that price. I just don't see a fit even if Sutter and Martin are traded. He's a #2 center.
- Ryan_Wilson

Assuming Grabovski came off his salary demands if his buddy Kuli came along, would you rather Sutter at 3.5ish or Grabovski if he came down to 4.25ish?

He's missed 71 games in 4 seasons with Pittsburgh.
- cap1681

And 43 of those were last year is my point...he's had one injury-plagued season. Lots of defensemen miss ~10 game a year due to the occupational hazards.

And it's not like Martin's had chronic type injuries. Broke a hand blocking a shot in the Olympics. Took an awkward hit and broke his leg earlier in the year. Broke his thumb the year before.

Not stuff I'd be worried about.

Assuming Grabovski came off his salary demands if his buddy Kuli came along, would you rather Sutter at 3.5ish or Grabovski if he came down to 4.25ish?
- Rawdog9755

Goc at 1.2ish sounds great!

I don't even feel good about Sutter at 3.0M.

Martin + Scuderi to Wings for Nyquist
- Ledgermain

Not sure anyone, even those advocating keeping Martin would argue with that

Goc at 1.2ish sounds great!

I don't even feel good about Sutter at 3.0M.
- Ryan_Wilson

I asked because given what JR said in his intro press conf regarding strength down the middle(and having already traded Sutter once), it wouldnt seem as far fetched as it initially appears to deal Sutter and Scuds and sign Grabo and Kuli.

EDIT: BTW you are getting some praises sung over at HFboards.

Thats not my argument to make. My argument is that he isn't consistent.
- Reverend Killtaker

But you've been parsing my words for three pages because of this statement I made:

The Penguins' best chance to win the Cup next year is to hold onto Paul Martin, he's consistently been their best defenseman.

So, who besides Martin has been their best defenseman for the longest stretches of time? Letang had a nice year the year of the lockout, but Martin had his best year as a pro that year. And note that I didn't say he's "always" been their best defenseman, because that changes over time.

Even during his off year, Niskanen was struggling, Michalek was writing his ticket out of town, and Letang was out for much of the year. Orpik had a decent season for himself, but I wouldn't say he had a better year than Martin, though the criticism Martin took was partly due to salary and high expectations that he didn't meet that year.

Goc at 1.2ish sounds great!

I don't even feel good about Sutter at 3.0M.
- Ryan_Wilson

I agree, if we resign Sutter, 2 yrs for 2.5 per would be the most I would go, I know he will get higher though