While I agree that some of the higher-end talent like Martin has more value than bottom-6 forwards and picks, the argument that this team is lacking in the bottom-6 is still valid. It's still weak, at best. As of now, we're still looking at 80% the pre-deadline bottom-6. The only change is Spaling in place of one of the rotating cast of AHL'ers that were filling out that bottom-6 alongside Sutter. And that is not good enough to go into the playoffs, considering that 1 or both of Goc & Stemp are likely gone. And even they didn't drastically improve the bottom-6 other than making the 3rd line serviceable instead of abysmal.

They need to improve the bottom-6. I think Vitale or Sill can still slot in on the bottom-6 and be effective in their roles. I think Adams needs replaced or to end up in the press box 9 out of 10 nights. Glass needs replaced. And the AHL'ers need to be back in the AHL where they belong. There's still a lot of holes that are being square peg into round hole'd in that half of the lineup to take care of.

It's easy to find third and fourth line guys. They are run of the mill players in most cases. The key is finding young top six types on a good contract.

So while I agree with Martin for some 3rd/4th liners and a pick is getting less than value for the guy, that does not negate the argument that some legit 3rd/4th liners need to be had.
- ScienceJesus

You can't keep thinking of trading top six forwards or top pair Dmen, especially the best Dman on the roster for third and fourth line scraps and picks. It's poor asset management. We have seen people make comments about trading Kunitz for this crap; Dupes for this crap; someone did the Neal version for crap and now Martin. There is a pattern here. People are so fixated on third and fourth line guys.

Depending on where Hornqvuist plays, you have Dupes, you have Sutter; you have new guy which poopty puck possession time; you have Megna; you have Adams (unfortunately); you have Gibbons and all the other guys that trotted up from SWB. There are more options now than what we had last year.

We won a Cup with Talbot and Fedotenko on the second line. LA just won with Tanner Pearson and Tyler Toffoli on their second line. Those two will likely end up being very good NHL offensive players, but they aren't there yet.

A player like Kulemin could be an effective NHL second line player with his skill set.
- rival22

Talbot was on the 2nd? I thought the cup lines were

14-87-billy g
Feds-71-Sykora
11-tk-Cooke
Talbot-DUPES-Adams

Talbot was on the 2nd? I thought the cup lines were

14-87-billy g
Feds-71-Sykora
11-tk-Cooke
Talbot-DUPES-Adams
- sammy87

Talbot was on the 4th line, Dupes may have been up to the 3rd line then. Not sure if he ever got 2nd line time besides late in the game over overtime when it was mix and matching.

Talbot was on the 2nd? I thought the cup lines were

14-87-billy g
Feds-71-Sykora
11-tk-Cooke
Talbot-DUPES-Adams
- sammy87

Sykora only played 7 games in the 2009 playoffs. He was a healthy scratch for a bit, and in his only finals appearance (game 6), he broke his foot.

But either way, to the original point, Kulemin now is better than 2009 Sykora.

Sykora only played 7 games in the 2009 playoffs. He was a healthy scratch for a bit, and in his only finals appearance (game 6), he broke his foot.
- rival22

Your mind is like a steel trap.

You can't keep thinking of trading top six forwards or top pair Dmen, especially the best Dman on the roster for third and fourth line scraps and picks. It's poor asset management. We have seen people make comments about trading Kunitz for this crap; Dupes for this crap; someone did the Neal version for crap and now Martin. There is a pattern here. People are so fixated on third and fourth line guys.

Depending on where Hornqvuist plays, you have Dupes, you have Sutter; you have new guy which poopty puck possession time; you have Megna; you have Adams (unfortunately); you have Gibbons and all the other guys that trotted up from SWB. There are more options now than what we had last year.
- Oneonta Penguin

I agreed that trading high-end players for 3rd/4th liners is poor asset management. I will continue to disagree that the bottom-6 doesn't need drastically improved though. I don't agree with doing it by trading high-end talent for 4th liners though.

Dupes likely slots in on the top line again unless he proves he can no longer do the job he had been doing for the past few years (whether he should be there or not is irrelevant to how he likely will be used and its effect on the bottom-6).

Hornqvist almost certainly plays on Geno's wing. He's a 2nd liner and a solid 2nd liner at that. Unless there's absolutely no chemistry, and in that case, the top-6 get shuffled to fit him next to Sid. But his presence also doesn't affect the bottom-6. He fills a spot in the Top-6 that was vacated when Neal was traded.

The rest of the bottom-6 is still made up of the same parts as before outside of Spaling at the moment. Spaling, Sutter, Adams (if they can't find a way to stick him in the press box or dump him off or send him to WB/S), maybe Vitale if he re-signs. Maybe Gibbons, but apparently he wants a 1-way deal and is at best a stop-gap on the 4th line. Maybe Zach Sill? Maybe Engo if they try to keep him & convert him to a 4th liner full-time? Maybe Megna? Maybe Harry Z, if he re-signs?

No matter how you slice it, you've got the exact SAME crop of 3rd/4th liners as last year that wasn't good enough. Will the addition of Spaling & removal of Goc &/or Stemp improve that? Not drastically, IMO. It's still the same weak crop of bottom-6 shuffled around. That's not an improvement.

Your mind is like a steel trap.
- dbell646

Foggy mind but the internet can quickly fill the gaps

Sykora only played 7 games in the 2009 playoffs. He was a healthy scratch for a bit, and in his only finals appearance (game 6), he broke his foot.
- rival22

I remember now, he came out in his skates with the cup and half uniform.

I think Satan dressed in gm 7?

Matt Frattin is a guy I would look at for cheap depth.

It seems vewy, vewy, qwiette out dair...

While I agree that some of the higher-end talent like Martin has more value than bottom-6 forwards and picks, the argument that this team is lacking in the bottom-6 is still valid. It's still weak, at best. As of now, we're still looking at 80% the pre-deadline bottom-6. The only change is Spaling in place of one of the rotating cast of AHL'ers that were filling out that bottom-6 alongside Sutter. And that is not good enough to go into the playoffs, considering that 1 or both of Goc & Stemp are likely gone. And even they didn't drastically improve the bottom-6 other than making the 3rd line serviceable instead of abysmal.

They need to improve the bottom-6. I think Vitale or Sill can still slot in on the bottom-6 and be effective in their roles. I think Adams needs replaced or to end up in the press box 9 out of 10 nights. Glass needs replaced. And the AHL'ers need to be back in the AHL where they belong. There's still a lot of holes that are being square peg into round hole'd in that half of the lineup to take care of.

So while I agree with Martin for some 3rd/4th liners and a pick is getting less than value for the guy, that does not negate the argument that some legit 3rd/4th liners need to be had.
- ScienceJesus

The 3rd and 4th line were used and rostered wrong by bylsma... they played short mins almost every game and he had guys like glass pyatt adams over guys like gibbons megna Harry z etc...

Drop ing dupes down to 3rd line with bennett and sutter and playing megna spaling and a ufa or wbs who can add the speed skill and grit is a great improvement over what we saw...

DB never gave any young forward a chance... plus the addition of ph possibly kuli amd one more guy is another improve ment of top 6

Ok I guess I can't trust the journalism found at The Hockey News anymore...

"Pittsburgh: After the James Neal trade, the Penguins have just seven forwards and five defensemen signed for 2014-15 and around $15 million in cap space. Their RFAs (Brandon Sutter and Simon Despres) aren’t going to be a major hurdle to overcome, but their UFAs are another story. Pens GM Ray Shero needs to lock up or replace wingers Jussi Jokinen and Lee Stempniak and a pair of veteran defensemen in Brooks Orpik and Matt Niskanen. Niskanen in particular will be a major priority, as the 27-year-old enjoyed a breakout season in 2013-14 and will be in demand."

http://www.thehockeynews....-30-teams-who-needs-what/

Ok I guess I can't trust the journalism found at The Hockey News anymore...

"Pittsburgh: After the James Neal trade, the Penguins have just seven forwards and five defensemen signed for 2014-15 and around $15 million in cap space. Their RFAs (Brandon Sutter and Simon Despres) aren’t going to be a major hurdle to overcome, but their UFAs are another story. Pens GM Ray Shero needs to lock up or replace wingers Jussi Jokinen and Lee Stempniak and a pair of veteran defensemen in Brooks Orpik and Matt Niskanen. Niskanen in particular will be a major priority, as the 27-year-old enjoyed a breakout season in 2013-14 and will be in demand."

http://www.thehockeynews....-30-teams-who-needs-what/
- Reverend Killtaker

So in the dozen to 200 GMs in our focus group... Shero got rehired silently. I'll believe it

The 3rd and 4th line were used and rostered wrong by bylsma... they played short mins almost every game and he had guys like glass pyatt adams over guys like gibbons megna Harry z etc...

Drop ing dupes down to 3rd line with bennett and sutter and playing megna spaling and a ufa or wbs who can add the speed skill and grit is a great improvement over what we saw...

DB never gave any young forward a chance... plus the addition of ph possibly kuli amd one more guy is another improve ment of top 6
- nh4442

The "top six/bottom six" way of thinking is becoming outdated. You really need a solid top nine to be competitive. You really need three solid lines that you can put out there in any situation, and not have to shield their minutes.

I agreed that trading high-end players for 3rd/4th liners is poor asset management. I will continue to disagree that the bottom-6 doesn't need drastically improved though. I don't agree with doing it by trading high-end talent for 4th liners though.

Dupes likely slots in on the top line again unless he proves he can no longer do the job he had been doing for the past few years (whether he should be there or not is irrelevant to how he likely will be used and its effect on the bottom-6).

Hornqvist almost certainly plays on Geno's wing. He's a 2nd liner and a solid 2nd liner at that. Unless there's absolutely no chemistry, and in that case, the top-6 get shuffled to fit him next to Sid. But his presence also doesn't affect the bottom-6. He fills a spot in the Top-6 that was vacated when Neal was traded.

The rest of the bottom-6 is still made up of the same parts as before outside of Spaling at the moment. Spaling, Sutter, Adams (if they can't find a way to stick him in the press box or dump him off or send him to WB/S), maybe Vitale if he re-signs. Maybe Gibbons, but apparently he wants a 1-way deal and is at best a stop-gap on the 4th line. Maybe Zach Sill? Maybe Engo if they try to keep him & convert him to a 4th liner full-time? Maybe Megna? Maybe Harry Z, if he re-signs?

No matter how you slice it, you've got the exact SAME crop of 3rd/4th liners as last year that wasn't good enough. Will the addition of Spaling & removal of Goc &/or Stemp improve that? Not drastically, IMO. It's still the same weak crop of bottom-6 shuffled around. That's not an improvement.
- ScienceJesus

Of course the 3rd & 4th lines are made of the same parts as before, outside of Spanding. Free Agency begins TOMORROW; The Penguins can't sign players that weren't on their roster last season at the moment.

Ok I guess I can't trust the journalism found at The Hockey News anymore...

"Pittsburgh: After the James Neal trade, the Penguins have just seven forwards and five defensemen signed for 2014-15 and around $15 million in cap space. Their RFAs (Brandon Sutter and Simon Despres) aren’t going to be a major hurdle to overcome, but their UFAs are another story. Pens GM Ray Shero needs to lock up or replace wingers Jussi Jokinen and Lee Stempniak and a pair of veteran defensemen in Brooks Orpik and Matt Niskanen. Niskanen in particular will be a major priority, as the 27-year-old enjoyed a breakout season in 2013-14 and will be in demand."

http://www.thehockeynews....-30-teams-who-needs-what/
- Reverend Killtaker

Yeah...Not great...

Of course the 3rd & 4th lines are made of the same parts as before, outside of Spanding. Free Agency begins TOMORROW; The Penguins can't sign players that weren't on their roster last season at the moment.
- s0rcerer1984

I know that. I'm pointing out that NOT being fixated on fixing the 3rd/4th lines would be a mistake. And the OP seemed to be of the belief that those lines were better than they were last year at this time. I was pointing out that they are not better than before because they were essentially the same personnel to shuffle around.

The plan is pencilled in dont worry about it. Are they still using fax machines in the league for trades and signings?

On Steve Ott...

The Flyers really really want Steve Ott. EK

Not a fun rumor.

On Steve Ott...

The Flyers really really want Steve Ott. EK

Not a fun rumor.
- nbartley9

It's from ek so it won't happen.

On Steve Ott...

The Flyers really really want Steve Ott. EK

Not a fun rumor.
- nbartley9

And a massive offer for JJ in WPG....come on, the dude is solid, but not worth more than 4/4

The 3rd and 4th line were used and rostered wrong by bylsma... they played short mins almost every game and he had guys like glass pyatt adams over guys like gibbons megna Harry z etc...

Drop ing dupes down to 3rd line with bennett and sutter and playing megna spaling and a ufa or wbs who can add the speed skill and grit is a great improvement over what we saw...

DB never gave any young forward a chance... plus the addition of ph possibly kuli amd one more guy is another improve ment of top 6
- nh4442

I half-agree with you. DB used his available options poorly, but that doesn't invalidate the argument that there is also the issue of some of those guys just not being any sort of fit in those roles or just aren't good enough. Harry Z would fit perfectly but was, as you pointed out, poorly utilized. Gibbons is, at best, a stop-gap on the 4th line. He brings some positives with speed & tenacity, but he's still going to be negatively impacted by his lack of size come playoff time when the ice gets smaller. Megna might or might not be an improvement. He also may need to play 2nd/3rd line time to be useful because his 4th line time didn't really fill me with confidence. Or he may not even be worth a jersey. I don't dislike him, but I think better can be easily found for the same cost.

Point being, we have a lot of the same sort of somewhat-quick, not terribly physical guys, which range from undersized to average size in that 3rd/4th line mish-mash of options. All of which have similar skill-sets and bring the same sort of things to the table generally. Now, will it be addition-by-subtraction with Glass/Pyatt gone? I'll cross my fingers. But not all of those guys are even good enough to be in the NHL.

But you're still missing my point. Having the same group of people and calling it better than this time last year is what I'm disagreeing with. And that the bottom-6 can't or shouldn't be improved is asking for more of the same weak, easy-to-play-against team.

Would love to see Leo Komarov on the 3rd line as well.

I know that. I'm pointing out that NOT being fixated on fixing the 3rd/4th lines would be a mistake. And the OP seemed to be of the belief that those lines were better than they were last year at this time. I was pointing out that they are not better than before because they were essentially the same personnel to shuffle around.
- ScienceJesus

I basically agree with you.

However, I will say that after reading up a bit on Spalding, I do think that Spalding as a LW and Sutter at C could be the start to a solid 3rd line. Add in Kulemin at $3M/yr or so as a UFA and I think its a marked improvement over Sutter flanked by Pyatt and Glass

I just wish more people would hold judgement until after UFA is bit under way. Not only that, but you just know once UFA is 15min under way posts about how the Penguins are doomed for not filling out the 4th line. Because 4th liners ALWAYS the first guys to get signed right at the start of UFA.

The "top six/bottom six" way of thinking is becoming outdated. You really need a solid top nine to be competitive. You really need three solid lines that you can put out there in any situation, and not have to shield their minutes.
- rival22

Well said. Agree 100%.