SO you are saying that other coaches put all their best players against Crosby and do not save any of them to go up against Malkin. Use all the charts you want, that's ridiculous.

Plus, how are you measuring easiest minutes? By the point totals of who he played against? Or by their defensive abilities? Because Ovechkin might not face off against the guys with the highest point totals, but he certainly faces the best defensive players on the other team.
- James_Tanner

You aren't up to date on the information available, that is fine. I'm not looking to convert anybody.

Leadership is another arbitrary, abstract unmeasurable thing I do not wish to discuss. Hopefully, ever.


- James_Tanner

Why?

Leadership shows up on the ice. Guys like Toews, Kopitar, Brown, Getzlaf... these are players that we can tell are leaders based on their play. The points, in the end, barely matter and barely factor into it.

Watching a player backcheck, forecheck, give his all night in night out (whether the results are there, or not) is something we can visually take a queue from. Anyone who has played sports, at any level, knows you look to guys to lead by example.

Do I really need to bring up the "controller unplugged" GIFs of OV's from recent years? They aren't just funny... that is how OV plays the two-way game: deer in the headlights.

Now, before you say "Well, that's not what he's the for..." neither is Steven Stamkos. No one will confuse him with Toews with pure two-way know-how, but this is a guy who at least TRIES in his own zone. He plays hard, even if he isn't all that polished at it yet. Hell, be broke his leg trying to backcheck as hard and fast as possible.

OV for the Hart? Really?

Any spelling variation of heart shouldn't be mentioned in the same sentence as Ovechkin. Stamkos is a better goal scorer, Crosby is a better player. I'd also put Malkin ahead of Ovechkin.

I may be incorrect, but I do remember Eric Lindros being ranked 3rd all time in PPG at some point. You seem to just be using any four year stretch. Which means you're doing what you accuse me of doing. !!!
- James_Tanner

You got it. Seem kind of unfair?
I'm using your methodology of proving Lindros' worth, and applying it to 3 other players. With better results.

Lindros was an amazing player, particularly for one 4 year stretch. Making up weird "achievements" doesn't further that argument at all.

I love how you make one of the worst possible arguments and then call me stupid.

They could have missed the playoffs anyways, so they might as well not have even had him, eh?

Come on. You must see how bad the logic there is. Lets use Sergei Bobrovski as an example, because it's easier to make the point with a goalie. Last year, Bob was in consideration for the Hart, but his team missed the Playoffs (by a tie breaker no less) and he ended up 5th.

Now, say his back up goalie wins one more game and the Jackets make the playoffs. Though Bobrovski didn't do a single thing differently, his team is now in the playoffs and he probably wins the Hart. That is why its crazy and incorrect to say MVP can only go to a player who's team makes the playoffs. Hockey is a team sport, Ovechkin shouldn't be punished because his team sucks.

Also, I don't think anyone who cites plus minus should call anyone else an idiot. You might as well use Eugenics to make your point.

Finally, it would be nice if people would realize that two people can hold opposite opinions and neither one of them has to be an idiot.
- James_Tanner

First it's Bobrovsky not with an "I". The V stands for valuable. So how can a player win an MVP award when nothing he did made his team better. His goals meant nothing besides his own personal achievement. For you to think Ovechkin should even be a consideration for the Hart Trophy this year is mind blowing. You talked about Kopitar and how good a two-way player he is. As good as Ovechkin is offensively he is 10 times worst than that defensively. If plus/minus means nothing then why does the stat exist? Ovechkin's biggest problem is he makes nobody else any better and to say he's the best in the league is a pure joke and yes a " Stupid" opinion. He's not even the best goal scorer in the NHL. That title belongs to Steven Stamkos and his injury is the only reason Ovechkin wins the Richard Trophy this year. Finally Ovechkin is not being punished. Players that deserve the nomination were nominated this year and that's it.

You aren't up to date on the information available, that is fine. I'm not looking to convert anybody.
- Ryan_Wilson

Its a simple question man. I would like to think I am up to date on all available info, but if I am not, certainly I want to learn. Only a moron would ignore new information, and if I am misinformed, I don't want to be.

When you say Crosby played the toughest minutes because he played a shutdown role, that is probably true, but it does matter how "toughest" is determined.

If Crosby plays against other teams top lines because they want him to play a shutdown role, then obviously "toughest"is determined by who scored the most points.

Obviously Ovechkin does not play against other teams top lines in a shutdown role.

SO, by your logic, he plays less tough minutes. I agree with this .

However, I think you are not understanding what I am saying which is that while Ov might not go up against other teams top lines, he is playing against everyones best defensive players. That may not rank as toughest competition if that is decided by point totals of the players hes up against.

You get what I mean?

I agree wholeheartedly on Kopitar. He more than held his own against Jonathan Toews, who is an excellent all-around center himself.

Lindros could very well belong in the Hall of Really Good. You can't elect someone to the Hockey Hall of Fame based on "what-ifs." You have to judge them based on what they actually did on the ice. For nine years, he was an elite, powerful center. His last four seasons in the league, he was a shell of the player he was. I think he will get in, but it's not the slam dunk you seem to think it is. What matters most in hockey is post-season success. And sugarcoat it all you want, but he just never came through when it mattered. He was also captain of the 1998 Nagano team that I'm sure Canada would like to forget about.

Ovechkin? MVP? Sorry, not happening. Not for a team that missed the postseason. To suggest otherwise is just ridiculous. If there was any justice, the Hart Trophy would go to Lundqvist.

Kessel had a nice offensive outburst but he is still a minus player which is a scary thought considering how many points he put up.
- Reveen

-4... thats not that bad on a team that gave up -25. I also wouldnt be able to count how many empty netters he was on the ice for (as a minus).

Kessel has come a long way defensively,

the amount of stupidity in some of these posts in unreal. im not just saying this because im a caps fan, but ovi gets WAY too much hate, especially for a guy who scores as many goals as he does. HE NEEDS A TEAM AROUND HIM JUST AS MUCH AS ANY OTHER STAR IN THE LEAGUE. even with subpar help from teammates and terrible coaching he still get's individual awards, which is amazing in itself. any intelligent hockey fan wouldn't be asking "how does washington not win a cup with ovi?" it should be "how does ovi win awards with washington?". get your heads out of your butts people, open your eyes, and don't hate a guy because of who he is.

I agree wholeheartedly on Kopitar. He more than held his own against Jonathan Toews, who is an excellent all-around center himself.

Lindros could very well belong in the Hall of Really Good. You can't elect someone to the Hockey Hall of Fame based on "what-ifs." You have to judge them based on what they actually did on the ice. For nine years, he was an elite, powerful center. His last four seasons in the league, he was a shell of the player he was. I think he will get in, but it's not the slam dunk you seem to think it is. What matters most in hockey is post-season success. And sugarcoat it all you want, but he just never came through when it mattered. He was also captain of the 1998 Nagano team that I'm sure Canada would like to forget about.

Ovechkin? MVP? Sorry, not happening. Not for a team that missed the postseason. To suggest otherwise is just ridiculous. If there was any justice, the Hart Trophy would go to Lundqvist.
- starshower776

For your Lindros comments here are some examples for you to think about because it's not what ifs.

Pavel Bure (Elected to the Hall of Fame)

Career games: 702
Career Points: 779
PPG avg: 1.109

Awards
Calder Trophy
Rocket Richard Trophy (2)

Eric Lindros

Career Games: 760
Career Points: 865
PPG avg: 1.138

Awards
Hart Trophy
Lester B Pearson

How can Bure be a Hall of Famer and Lindros not be when there numbers are so similar with Lindros' PPG was slightly better than Bure's

the amount of stupidity in some of these posts in unreal. im not just saying this because im a caps fan, but ovi gets WAY too much hate, especially for a guy who scores as many goals as he does. HE NEEDS A TEAM AROUND HIM JUST AS MUCH AS ANY OTHER STAR IN THE LEAGUE. even with subpar help from teammates and terrible coaching he still get's individual awards, which is amazing in itself. any intelligent hockey fan wouldn't be asking "how does ovi not win a cup with washington?" it should be "with what ovi has been surrounded by in his career, how does he still have all these individual trophies?". get your heads out of your butts people, open your eyes, and don't hate a guy because of who he is.
- capitals89

no.....I think your saying it because your a caps fan.

sorry ovi is lucky to be in the top 5 no one with a minus -30 should be nominated for anything! yes he scored a lot of goals but look how many he allowed when he was on the ice he is a one way player now he needs a change of scenery in my opinion

the amount of stupidity in some of these posts in unreal. im not just saying this because im a caps fan, but ovi gets WAY too much hate, especially for a guy who scores as many goals as he does. HE NEEDS A TEAM AROUND HIM JUST AS MUCH AS ANY OTHER STAR IN THE LEAGUE. even with subpar help from teammates and terrible coaching he still get's individual awards, which is amazing in itself. any intelligent hockey fan wouldn't be asking "how does washington not win a cup with ovi?" it should be "how does ovi win awards with washington?". get your heads out of your butts people, open your eyes, and don't hate a guy because of who he is.
- capitals89

the hart trophy will never be a minus 30 whatever!! he doesn't play defense what so ever real hart winners play both ends of the ice im a caps fan too and I hope we deal him to get a good start on a rebuild!!

For your Lindros comments here are some examples for you to think about because it's not what ifs.

Pavel Bure (Elected to the Hall of Fame)

Career games: 702
Career Points: 779
PPG avg: 1.109

Awards
Calder Trophy
Rocket Richard Trophy (2)

Eric Lindros

Career Games: 760
Career Points: 865
PPG avg: 1.138

Awards
Hart Trophy
Lester B Pearson

How can Bure be a Hall of Famer and Lindros not be when there numbers are so similar with Lindros' PPG was slightly better than Bure's
- RobFlyers#1

Even better example:

Cam Neely

Career Games: 726
Career Points: 694
PPG avg: .956

Awards
Masterton Trophy

I Loved Cam Neely - one of my favorite players! However, if he's in then Lindros is quite simply a no-brainer!

This writer is obviously a joke. Ovi for the Hart, are you serious! HAHAHAHAHAHA

That's not a biased opinion at all, ooh wait yea it definitely is. If Crosby would have shot as much as Ovechkin, he WOULD HAVE had more goals than OvenChicken. Ovechkin - 13.2 shooting% 2013-14 / Crosby 13.9 shooting% 2013-14

Do research before you write some stupid crap from now on.....moron hahahaha

I agree Ovechkin should be at least in the conversation for the Hart. First of all the argument that the team didn't make the playoffs is weak because they very nearly made it in (maybe a point short) and Ovechkin led the team to five playoff appearances the seasons prior to this one. Without Ovechkin would this sub par team even make the playoffs once? Also I watched most Caps games this year and Ovechkin does pass but when he does no one scores, his line mates shooting percentages are abysmal, which also partially explains Ovechkins poor +/-. How can a player who leads the league in scoring by eight goals and is the only player to break 50 not be nominated for the Hart? It makes no sense to me. Yes I'm a Caps fan, but am I biased? Maybe, but I prefer to think I'm informed. I don't just rip on Ovi after seeing clips on sportscentre of him failing to back check and assume that's his whole game (like most people on here). The reality is most people on this site are Canadian and they can't stand that the best goal scorer in the world isn't Canadian and that makes them jealous and it hurts their pride. If Ovechkin was Canadian we would never have this conversation.

I highly doubt I am on my own here. Sure, most people would disagree, but most people tend to be wrong about everything anyways.

You do realize that the real value of a goal is such that he would have to be nearly minus 200 before his 51 goals were negated?

You do realize that plus minus is a ridiculous stat that is quite literally useless? It totally negates what he does on the Power Play for instance.

This is quite literally an argument I am not going to win, in terms of popular opinion, but in terms of reality, it's also one I am 100% correct about, so I am not gonna even bother arguing beyond this.

OV deserves the Hart and someone had to say it!.
- James_Tanner

why do u keep saying plus minus doesn't mean anything in hart voting??? yes pp goals don't count but he has backstrom setting him up perfect !! he ONLY plays offense the hart goes to the best all around player a player that is on the ice for more goals then his team lets in!!

I agree Ovechkin should be at least in the conversation for the Hart. First of all the argument that the team didn't make the playoffs is weak because they very nearly made it in (maybe a point short) and Ovechkin led the team to five playoff appearances the seasons prior to this one. Without Ovechkin would this sub par team even make the playoffs once? Also I watched most Caps games this year and Ovechkin does pass but when he does no one scores, his line mates shooting percentages are abysmal, which also partially explains Ovechkins poor +/-. How can a player who leads the league in scoring by eight goals and is the only player to break 50 not be nominated for the Hart? It makes no sense to me. Yes I'm a Caps fan, but am I biased? Maybe, but I prefer to think I'm informed. I don't just rip on Ovi after seeing clips on sportscentre of him failing to back check and assume that's his whole game (like most people on here). The reality is most people on this site are Canadian and they can't stand that the best goal scorer in the world isn't Canadian and that makes them jealous and it hurts their pride. If Ovechkin was Canadian we would never have this conversation.
- holyhuselius

im Canadian and it doesn't hurt my pride that he scored 51 !! he had backstrom setting him up !! and ovi was still on the ice for more goal against than for even if you count pluses on pp goals!! he is a one dimensional player and is not a hart trophy player

This writer is obviously a joke. Ovi for the Hart, are you serious! HAHAHAHAHAHA

That's not a biased opinion at all, ooh wait yea it definitely is. If Crosby would have shot as much as Ovechkin, he WOULD HAVE had more goals than OvenChicken. Ovechkin - 13.2 shooting% 2013-14 / Crosby 13.9 shooting% 2013-14

Do research before you write some stupid crap from now on.....moron hahahaha
- SteelCity14

I agree! Even at his best, Ovi's play without the puck was, shall we say, "laid back". Nowadays it is defiantly nonexistent. MVP candidates typically are complete players. No doubt Ovi is one of the league's best goalscorers right now, if not the best. It's just that he literally does nothing else (at least this past season).

Crosby is and should be the MVP for 2013-14.

Even better example:

Cam Neely

Career Games: 726
Career Points: 694
PPG avg: .956

Awards
Masterton Trophy

I Loved Cam Neely - one of my favorite players! However, if he's in then Lindros is quite simply a no-brainer!
- BOSS_TWEED

Good one. I also loved Cam Neely. But your right there are a lot of players in the HOF with numbers not as good as Lindros. A player should not be punished for sustaining injuries which stopped them from playing a longer period of time.

I agree Ovechkin should be at least in the conversation for the Hart. First of all the argument that the team didn't make the playoffs is weak because they very nearly made it in (maybe a point short) and Ovechkin led the team to five playoff appearances the seasons prior to this one. Without Ovechkin would this sub par team even make the playoffs once? Also I watched most Caps games this year and Ovechkin does pass but when he does no one scores, his line mates shooting percentages are abysmal, which also partially explains Ovechkins poor +/-. How can a player who leads the league in scoring by eight goals and is the only player to break 50 not be nominated for the Hart? It makes no sense to me. Yes I'm a Caps fan, but am I biased? Maybe, but I prefer to think I'm informed. I don't just rip on Ovi after seeing clips on sportscentre of him failing to back check and assume that's his whole game (like most people on here). The reality is most people on this site are Canadian and they can't stand that the best goal scorer in the world isn't Canadian and that makes them jealous and it hurts their pride. If Ovechkin was Canadian we would never have this conversation.
- holyhuselius

Informed? You think wrong. You said the best goal scorer wasn't Canadian but he actually is. He goes by the name Steven Stamkos.

Over the past 4 seasons

Ovechkin: 283 games played
153 goals
0.54 gpg avg

Stamkos: 249 games played
159 goals
0.64 gpg avg

Now your informed.

Informed? You think wrong. You said the best goal scorer wasn't Canadian but he actually is. He goes by the name Steven Stamkos.

Over the past 4 seasons

Ovechkin: 283 games played
153 goals
0.54 gpg avg

Stamkos: 249 games played
159 goals
0.64 gpg avg

Now your informed.
- RobFlyers#1

Ovechkin out scored Stamkos the last two seasons, making him the leagues best goal scorer. Now you are informed.

Ovechkin out scored Stamkos the last two seasons, making him the leagues best goal scorer. Now you are informed.
- holyhuselius[/quote

he also played 41 more games over the past 2 seasons. That's your argument. Weak but he hold on to those thoughts. Maybe the caps can change their logo to the Russia national team jersey? Maybe Ovechkin would want to win then hey? Injury to Stamkos is the only reason Ovi won the Richard Trophy this season and I guess for caps fans that stings.

I would love to have Ovi on my team, but he wouldn't be my first pick if I could chose whoever I wanted.

Europeans NEVER get the respect that good ol' Canadian boys get, it's always a problem of this or that....maaaaaybe Lidstrom and some other players at the end of successful carreers....

I never liked Lindros, but 95 there was no one I'd rather have on my team than him...I do not know exactly what the criteria for getting into HOF is, but I'm not sure that likability is one of them..Don't think ppg is one of them either..

Sooooo, Londros for HOF , Ovi for Hart...maybe not this year..

I agree! Even at his best, Ovi's play without the puck was, shall we say, "laid back". Nowadays it is defiantly nonexistent. MVP candidates typically are complete players. No doubt Ovi is one of the league's best goalscorers right now, if not the best. It's just that he literally does nothing else (at least this past season).


Crosby is and should be the MVP for 2013-14.
- BOSS_TWEED

Here's the thing, a fifty goal scorer with no defense might be better than a defensively great 35 goal scorer.

I don't think any of the people saying Ovechkin sucks are in any way coming close to valuing a goal properly.

You can make a perfectly valid argument that another player should win the MVP, but you the fact that he isn't in the top three is flat-out ridiculous.

And apparently I am going to have to write a blog about why +/- is a useless stat. I thought everyone knew that, but apparently I am wrong.

But, if you are wondering, among many other reasons, the main reason why plus/minus is a garbage stat is that it values a goal that you score personally as equal to one you were on the ice for. It is reasonable to assume you would have to be -200 before your 51 goals were negated.