http://www.skepticalraptor.com/logicalfallacy_files/False_Equivalence.html
- James_Tanner

Plus minus is such a bad stat that it shouldn't even be tracked, let alone talked about.

Just imagine how many goals Ovechkin would score if there was a player on the second line in Washington making it so that he didn't face the best defensive players every time he is on the ice.

I just don't believe that people value goals high enough. Puck hog, bad defense, coaster, whatever you want to say about him, he still lead the league in the stat that literally decides who wins.
- James_Tanner

I still think I'd take some other players before I'd take Ovi, but I do agree about plus/minus. It's so clearly a function of the team as a whole.

Plus minus is such a bad stat that it shouldn't even be tracked, let alone talked about.

Just imagine how many goals Ovechkin would score if there was a player on the second line in Washington making it so that he didn't face the best defensive players every time he is on the ice.

I just don't believe that people value goals high enough. Puck hog, bad defense, coaster, whatever you want to say about him, he still lead the league in the stat that literally decides who wins.
- James_Tanner

yeah but he was on the ice for a ton of goals scored against him 5 on 5...in this era people value a 2 way player over a pure goal scorer...I would take Toews and his 28 goals over Ovi any day

I really love your satire of Ovi. Thanks for the LULZ

How is he valuable to his team if his team can't make the playoffs.

Sorry but I don't think Washington/Ovi will return to their dominate lights out form
- Danformo

I hate this argument. Yeah, it's Ovechkin's fault their goaltending was inconsistent and their secondary scoring disappeared.

Kessel on the Bruins was a minus play two of his three season.
- Reveen

He was a plus 23 in that third season, a plus overall as a Bruin.

He scored 8 more goals than the next player, how could he possibly be anymore dominant?
- James_Tanner

He could win the Art Ross instead of the Maurice Richard trophy.

I think the Caps would be smart to trade Ovi and build around Backstrom instead. Trade him to Phoenix since James loves him so much.

Sorry, but that is a ridiculous argument that doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

It isn't Ovechkins fault that his GM - who was fired - created a team with two star players and a bunch of duds.

OV personally scored nearly 25% of his teams goals. What is he supposed to do? Will the second, third and fourth lines to be better? Use his telepathic skills to help the goalie make more saves?

Come on.
- James_Tanner

Sorry Tanner but MVP stands for most valuable player. Washington could have missed the playoffs without Ovechkin so MVP he is NOT. That was the most stupid and ridiculous comment I think I have ever read on Hockeybuzz. Your stupidity obviously knows no bounds. Yes Ovechkin scored 51 goals on 386 shots and had 28 assists ( maybe if he used his teammates more the team might have scored more than they did). Ovi was also a - 35 and scored 24 of 51 goals on the man advantage. Washington has tried to bring players in to help this team win because it's simple Ovechkin is not going to lead anyone to a Stanley Cup. Also coming from a Fyers fan Ovechkin could not tie Crosby's skates.

Lindros as good as Gretzky or Lemieux

He's not even close
- Reveen

Agreed.

Injuries are part of life. Lindros was a great player when healthy, but to elevate him to better than Gretzky and Mario is silly.

I hate this argument. Yeah, it's Ovechkin's fault their goaltending was inconsistent and their secondary scoring disappeared.
- isles10289

What argument? With Ovi Washington missed the playoffs....so without him they probably would have had the same result. Where is the value?

Its strange how the stroking, and rightfully so of, Kopitar's two-way play starts the article and finishes stating the best player in the game so someone who doesn't even know what defence is LMAO

Its strange how the stroking, and rightfully so of, Kopitar's two-way play starts the article and finishes stating the best player in the game so someone who doesn't even know what defence is LMAO
- donavin

Crosby's offense will always overshadow his defensive prowess. The fact is he could be a legitimate contender for the Selke Trophy this year. He played in a shutdown role for the Penguins this season. He does not get gifted easy minutes. Yet still 104 points. Imagine the kind of numbers he would have if he was given advantageous matchups.

But hey, let's not let facts get in the way of a good narrative.

Agreed.

Injuries are part of life. Lindros was a great player when healthy, but to elevate him to better than Gretzky and Mario is silly.
- Hemingways

No one is saying he is better than those guys.

What I said was that if he never had the injury problems, he would be in that conversation. And it's true,he would be. Sadly he was injured, but for four years he was one of the five best players of all time and to ignore that and not even put him in the hall of fame is a joke.

The fact that he wasn't a first ballot HOF member with 100% of the vote just shows that there is too much politics and crap like that involved with the selection process.

Ovechkin went over a month this season without scoring a single point at 5v5. And you think that makes him the mvp? Seriously?

Crosby's offense will always overshadow his defensive prowess. The fact is he could be a legitimate contender for the Selke Trophy this year. He played in a shutdown role for the Penguins this season. He does not get gifted easy minutes. Yet still 104 points. Imagine the kind of numbers he would have if he was given advantageous matchups.

But hey, let's not let facts get in the way of a good narrative.


- Ryan_Wilson

I agree with you, Crosby is awesome. Underrated on defense, no doubt. BUT Ovechkin scored 51 goals in a league where 30 makes you a star player. His 51 in 2014 is a better accomplishment than Selanne's 76 in 1993. Even if you can make an argument for Crosby winning -which you can, easily - at the very least Ovechkin should have been nominated.

Also, even if Crosby plays hard minutes, there is no doubting that his life is made easier by the fact that someone has to split off his line to cover Malkin and Neal. Ovechkin has no such protection.

Ovechkin went over a month this season without scoring a single point at 5v5. And you think that makes him the mvp? Seriously?
- FlyersSteve118

Yes. Seriously. You can't just ignore PP goals. If the game is 3-2, it doesn't matter if you scored all 3 on the PP while the other team scored both theirs 5-5.

Yes, 5 on 5 play matters, but its a metric that has to be given context, something you are failing to provide.

Its the same when people say he scored 24 of his goals on the PP - who cares? They all count the same and he is unstoppable.

Sorry Tanner but MVP stands for most valuable player. Washington could have missed the playoffs without Ovechkin so MVP he is NOT. That was the most stupid and ridiculous comment I think I have ever read on Hockeybuzz. Your stupidity obviously knows no bounds. Yes Ovechkin scored 51 goals on 386 shots and had 28 assists ( maybe if he used his teammates more the team might have scored more than they did). Ovi was also a - 35 and scored 24 of 51 goals on the man advantage. Washington has tried to bring players in to help this team win because it's simple Ovechkin is not going to lead anyone to a Stanley Cup. Also coming from a Fyers fan Ovechkin could not tie Crosby's skates.
- RobFlyers#1

I love how you make one of the worst possible arguments and then call me stupid.

They could have missed the playoffs anyways, so they might as well not have even had him, eh?

Come on. You must see how bad the logic there is. Lets use Sergei Bobrovski as an example, because it's easier to make the point with a goalie. Last year, Bob was in consideration for the Hart, but his team missed the Playoffs (by a tie breaker no less) and he ended up 5th.

Now, say his back up goalie wins one more game and the Jackets make the playoffs. Though Bobrovski didn't do a single thing differently, his team is now in the playoffs and he probably wins the Hart. That is why its crazy and incorrect to say MVP can only go to a player who's team makes the playoffs. Hockey is a team sport, Ovechkin shouldn't be punished because his team sucks.

Also, I don't think anyone who cites plus minus should call anyone else an idiot. You might as well use Eugenics to make your point.

Finally, it would be nice if people would realize that two people can hold opposite opinions and neither one of them has to be an idiot.

Ovi has tremendous scoring ability. That much is true.

His motivation has always been a bit of a question marl (though, not as much as some would like it to be), his two-way play is ghastly and his leadership on the ice seems iffy.

He scored a ton of goals on a team that didn't make the playoffs and, when they do, constantly flame out under any pressure at all.

The Hart? It's for a guy most valuable to his team's success. Ovi, on the other hand, should get an award for player whose team most resembles him: all flash, no sizzle.


EDIT:
Whoa, the Bobrovsky comparison is totally not apt. OV's team didn't "suck", they were a middling group whose scoring line forwards have the same mentality has him: score goals, score goals, score goals...back check? Is that like late payment?

With guys like Backstrom, Green, grabovski, Alzner, Carlson... that is not a "sucky" core. But it is one that needs an all-in leader to get the most out of.

I'm not sure if you're playing devil's advocate or have just lost the plot.

I agree with you, Crosby is awesome. Underrated on defense, no doubt. BUT Ovechkin scored 51 goals in a league where 30 makes you a star player. His 51 in 2014 is a better accomplishment than Selanne's 76 in 1993. Even if you can make an argument for Crosby winning -which you can, easily - at the very least Ovechkin should have been nominated.

Also, even if Crosby plays hard minutes, there is no doubting that his life is made easier by the fact that someone has to split off his line to cover Malkin and Neal. Ovechkin has no such protection.
- James_Tanner

This isn't true at all. He played shutdown minutes, it doesn't matter who was on the other lines, he was used in a shutdown role, he did not have life made easier for him, he played the tough minutes. This happened. Malkin being on the roster does nothing to change this. Sidney Crosby faced the toughest competition.

Now if you want to argue that Malkin's life was made easier by Sid and he was the beneficiary of easier minutes, that would be valid.

And Ovechkin saw the easiest minutes of anybody on that chart, "no help" or not.

Ovi has tremendous scoring ability. That much is true.

His motivation has always been a bit of a question marl (though, not as much as some would like it to be), his two-way play is ghastly and his leadership on the ice seems iffy.

He scored a ton of goals on a team that didn't make the playoffs and, when they do, constantly flame out under any pressure at all.

The Hart? It's for a guy most valuable to his team's success. Ovi, on the other hand, should get an award for player whose team most resembles him: all flash, no sizzle.
- OzBolts

One of the reasons I always tend to mock or ignore the ideas about heart and determination is OVechkin. If he doesn't care and has no heart, how could he lead the league in the hardest thing to do? If he had heart he'd score 100? Come on.

Leadership is another arbitrary, abstract unmeasurable thing I do not wish to discuss. Hopefully, ever.

You do have a point about the player being most valuable to his teams success, but that's a whole other argument. As far as I am concerned, the Hart should be for best player.

This isn't true at all. He played shutdown minutes, it doesn't matter who was on the other lines, he was used in a shutdown role, he did not have life made easier for him, he played the tough minutes. This happened. Malkin being on the roster does nothing to change this. Sidney Crosby faced the toughest competition.

Now if you want to argue that Malkin's life was made easier by Sid and he was the beneficiary of easier minutes, that would be valid.

And Ovechkin saw the easiest minutes of anybody on that chart, "no help" or not.
- Ryan_Wilson

SO you are saying that other coaches put all their best players against Crosby and do not save any of them to go up against Malkin. Use all the charts you want, that's ridiculous.

Plus, how are you measuring easiest minutes? By the point totals of who he played against? Or by their defensive abilities? Because Ovechkin might not face off against the guys with the highest point totals, but he certainly faces the best defensive players on the other team.

He was only like the third highest PPG player of all time during that period and he did it during one of the lowest scoring eras in NHL history.
- James_Tanner

For a 4 year period he was the 3rd highest ppg of all time? What??

1993-94 thru 1996-97

Lindros 361 pts in 236 games. 1.529 ppg

1995-96 through 1998-99

Jagr 473 points in 303 games 1.561ppg

Steve Yzerman had a 4 year stretch where he averaged 1.61. LaFleur has a 4 year stretch at 1.64...I'm sure this list could go on and on.

Im with you that in his prime, when healthy #88 was a dominant player.
Cherry picking limited groups of stats to somehow prove a point, which is ultimately incorrect is the most overrated thing ever

Bolded because I know how much you enjoy to use hyperbole.

For a 4 year period he was the 3rd highest ppg of all time? What??

1993-94 thru 1996-97

Lindros 361 pts in 236 games. 1.529 ppg

1995-96 through 1998-99

Jagr 473 points in 303 games 1.561ppg

Steve Yzerman had a 4 year stretch where he averaged 1.61. LaFleur has a 4 year stretch at 1.64...I'm sure this list could go on and on.

Im with you that in his prime, when healthy #88 was a dominant player.
Cherry picking limited groups of stats to somehow prove a point, which is ultimately incorrect is the most overrated thing ever

Bolded because I know how much you enjoy to use hyperbole.

- InvisibleOrange

I may be incorrect, but I do remember Eric Lindros being ranked 3rd all time in PPG at some point. You seem to just be using any four year stretch. Which means you're doing what you accuse me of doing. !!!