The rebuttal was for the statement that you made of "When a guy like Grossmann can't do anything with the puck except dump it in or chip it out, you lose possession of it".

I think that is false. And in my reply I stated that Grossmann is capable of making an outlet pass to a teammate and moving the puck, if there is puck support from the forwards. When a player like Grossmann, who has limited puck skills, is outnumbered on the puck and pressured, and doesn't have support and an outlet for the puck. Well he's not going to skate out of it, an make a dazzling stretch pass because the gap between forwards and defense is like the Grand Canyon, and they're already up ice. That's the biggest problem with this team. Other teams do a much better job of that. And that's why a player like Matt Greene can have solid possession numbers, even with the same limited puck skills. And this is also more evidence of why Corsi is such a bad stat for looking at players. Because it's dependent on far more then just the specific player the number is assigned for.
- MJL

Which you mis read. You ignored the next sentence which expressly stated that it was important to STRESS POSSESSION AND SUPPORT THE PUCK.

Kind of important part of the point I was making about the importance of possession & puck support. I mean I only used those exact words, makes them kind of important, ya know?

... but clutch scoring! Oh wait, you're telling me the more you have the puck, the more chance you have of scoring a clutch goal? /jawdrop
- Tomahawk

You don't, because there is also clutch goaltending involved. The game comes down to goals scored, and goals prevented, like it always does. And I'm available to discuss it.

People can say injuries, support cast or whatever but Carter played nothing like he did the last couple of years in LA, in his time with Philadelphia.

Much more assertive and mature player imo. Good for him.
- flyer_nutter

Agreed, Carter was much more of a perimeter player in Philly. Kopitar is just such a beast at both ends of the ice, maybe some of his work ethic has rubbed off on Carter.

Which you mis read. You ignored the next sentence which expressly stated that it was important to STRESS POSSESSION AND SUPPORT THE PUCK.

Kind of important part of the point I was making about the importance of possession & puck support. I mean I only used those exact words, makes them kind of important, ya know?
- Jsaquella

I didn't disagree with that part of the post. I disagreed with the part about a player like Grossmann only being able to chip or dump the puck out.

Bill Meltzer: 2014 NHL Draft: A Look at the Top Russian Prospects
- bmeltzer

Yes to all Nikita Scherbak, Ivan Barbashev, and Nikolay Goldobin.

It seems like if the Flyers keep # 17, there could be anyone of about 20 players to target.
- PhiFaninEdm

Pretty much

One thing that really strikes me about WPG is the almost complete lack of player movement since the team relocated. Everyone knew the Thrashers were terrible. I'm really surprised they haven't been the team to deal a top 4 D man to a desperate team. They're really lacking on offense ...and have been for years. I just don't get what they're doing holding onto Bogo, Enstrom and Buff. Plus they've got Trouba and Morrissey in the pipeline. Their deck could really use a shuffle.

Sorry for responding so late.

Sure Crosby has a serious case for winning the Hart Trophy and probably will win it. At the same time, my argument for Giroux is this. The late start, the amount of points he was able to post above everyone else in the league when Giroux was finally able to turn it on. Most importantly, do the Philadelphia Flyers make the playoffs without Claude Giroux in the line up? With Sidney Crosby, he's so well offensively supported with the likes of Malkin, Neal, Letang and Kunitz is still pretty impressive. Guys like Malkin and Letang can still miss time and the offense is still rather scary.

In our case, 99.9% is ready to jump from the Vincent LeCavalier ship. Love him or hate Vinny, if we lose Giroux to a Stamkos like injury, we become that much more thin and inexperienced at center. I think our chances of making the playoffs become officially lost. I think our eggs are all in the Giroux basket and have to cross our fingers that he sees 80 plus games a season. Giroux in my opinion doesn't even have a trigger man. A pure shooter to play with. Both Crosby and Getzlaf do.

Am I overrating how important Giroux is to the Flyers?
- SuperSchennBros

i dont think you are wrong for valuing giroux to the flyers the way you do.

however, i think you are overestimating how good the pens are sans malkin/letang/dupuis. and who is the pure shooter crosby has to play with? the team has literally been searching one his entire career, sans maybe a handful of games he had with hossa.

Maybe my previous post slanted towards desperation because of finances. I guess I was trying to point out it is easier for a large market team like the Flyers to take on a financial risk of acquiring a player who is owed significant money over a small market team.

Your point about Kane being in the doghouse with now two separate coaches has to have gotten the attention of the ownership and upper management. His talent is undeniable, as long as he is engaged he is dynamic, disinterested he is Zherdev. You see all the physical skill, but are left wanting more because he just teases with all that on-ice ability.
- ravishingone

The problem is that he still does provide decent play. So trading him while selling low is kind of like what the Flyers did with JVR for LSchenn.

I think he can be had, but it wont be cheap. Much more than bSchenn. Personally I try to avoid the bright and shiny lights and thinking about improving that front top 9 via trade and giving up assets. IMO ever asset the Flyers have should be used to bring talent to the back end. For all the promise Ghost and Morin may have, they haven't played one month even in the AHL yet. Continue to shore up that back end.

Trading Coburn isn't even a thought in my mind.
- SuperSchennBros

yeah. i think thats the correct route.

Sorry for responding so late.

Sure Crosby has a serious case for winning the Hart Trophy and probably will win it. At the same time, my argument for Giroux is this. The late start, the amount of points he was able to post above everyone else in the league when Giroux was finally able to turn it on. Most importantly, do the Philadelphia Flyers make the playoffs without Claude Giroux in the line up? With Sidney Crosby, he's so well offensively supported with the likes of Malkin, Neal, Letang and Kunitz is still pretty impressive. Guys like Malkin and Letang can still miss time and the offense is still rather scary.

In our case, 99.9% is ready to jump from the Vincent LeCavalier ship. Love him or hate Vinny, if we lose Giroux to a Stamkos like injury, we become that much more thin and inexperienced at center. I think our chances of making the playoffs become officially lost. I think our eggs are all in the Giroux basket and have to cross our fingers that he sees 80 plus games a season. Giroux in my opinion doesn't even have a trigger man. A pure shooter to play with. Both Crosby and Getzlaf do.

Am I overrating how important Giroux is to the Flyers?
- SuperSchennBros

No, you're not overrating how important Giroux is to the Flyers. That is why he is a finalist for the Hart Trophy. Because enough of the voters feel he is worthy of the honor. But with that being said, he's not going to win it.

One thing that really strikes me about WPG is the almost complete lack of player movement since the team relocated. Everyone knew the Thrashers were terrible. I'm really surprised they haven't been the team to deal a top 4 D man to a desperate team. They're really lacking on offense ...and have been for years. I just don't get what they're doing holding onto Bogo, Enstrom and Buff. Plus they've got Trouba and Morrissey in the pipeline. Their deck could really use a shuffle.
- hereticpride

Chevyldayoff is like patience personified... or he's just completely ossified... Winnipeggers have yet to settle on which is actually the case.

Chevyldayoff is like patience personified... or he's just completely ossified... Winnipegers have yet to settle on which is actually the case.
- Tomahawk

Seriously. Aside from Kane their biggest forwards since Kovy left have been Andrew Ladd and Olli Jokinen. Jesus F'n Christ on a bicycle.

One thing that really strikes me about WPG is the almost complete lack of player movement since the team relocated. Everyone knew the Thrashers were terrible. I'm really surprised they haven't been the team to deal a top 4 D man to a desperate team. They're really lacking on offense ...and have been for years. I just don't get what they're doing holding onto Bogo, Enstrom and Buff for. Plus they've got Trouba and Morrissey in the pipeline. Their deck could really use a shuffle.
- hereticpride

Nope. Again, I think ownership and fans know FA isn't going to be an option for a little while until the team builds more of a winning product. Its not a grand destination. Little reason why the Flyers can annoy me at times because they have that tool of unlimited cash and an attractive FA destination that not every market carries.

They are doing it right imo. Identifying which players are going to be part of the future and sticking with them. As you say, Enstrom and Bogosian. Flyers need to do the same with Coburn.

Do think that some changes may be coming. Most notably with Buff/Kane.

No, you're not overrating how important Giroux is to the Flyers. That is why he is a finalist for the Hart Trophy. Because enough of the voters feel he is worthy of the honor. But with that being said, he's not going to win it.
- MJL

Fair enough.

Nope. Again, I think ownership and fans know FA isn't going to be an option for a little while until the team builds more of a winning product. Its not a grand destination. Little reason why the Flyers can annoy me at times because they have that tool of unlimited cash and an attractive FA destination that not every market carries.

They are doing it right imo. Identifying which players are going to be part of the future and sticking with them. As you say, Enstrom and Bogosian. Flyers need to do the same with Coburn.

Do think that some changes may be coming. Most notably with Buff/Kane.
- flyer_nutter

Yeah, I know they wont attract UFAs up there. But I was getting at they should be open to more trades because of that. Idk, I just see them as a very stagnant franchise.

Flyers imo could take a page out of the Jets playbook in terms of developing a team organically and building it to have a window that opens with an offense and defense being in their prime roughly at similar times.

/fake Flyers fan

Seriously. Aside from Kane their biggest forwards since Kovy left have been Andrew Ladd and Olli Jokinen. Jesus F'n Christ on a bicycle.
- hereticpride

I think he's waiting for more ex-Blackhawks to shake loose.. at least ones that aren't hoovered up by Dale Tallon first.

i dont think you are wrong for valuing giroux to the flyers the way you do.

however, i think you are overestimating how good the pens are sans malkin/letang/dupuis. and who is the pure shooter crosby has to play with? the team has literally been searching one his entire career, sans maybe a handful of games he had with hossa.
- stayinthefnnet

Maybe I'm wrong but it seems like whoever plays with Crosby, elite or minor league, all they have to do is be in the right spot, catch the puck on their blade and shoot.

Bill, I liked what Christian Dvorak brought to London this year..........Even though he wasn't asked to put up big points he could be a solid pick in round 2 or 3.

Yeah, I know they wont attract UFAs up there. But I was getting at they should be open to more trades because of that. Idk, I just see them as a very stagnant franchise.
- hereticpride

They are, but I think that D core will be set up for a while. Bogosian, Enstrom, Trouba and Morrissey.

Wheeler, Ladd, Scheifele and Frolik are obviously lacking up front. I do think just trading pieces which fit the big picture going into the future just to shake things up and sniff the playoffs is foolish. That Thrasher franchise had such little talent, and no moves are going to make the Jets an elite team comparable to the Kings or Hawks. Need to do it slow, and do it right.

Again though, do think you see Buff/Kane moved in the next couple years.

Trading Coburn isn't even a thought in my mind.
- SuperSchennBros

The only reason I could see it happening is Hextall's comments about giving us a window of years to win the cup. We won't be fielding a Stanley Cup caliber defense until some of the guys we drafted or will draft make the roster. Coburn has value now to rework our defensive core, and, if he is 33-35 by the time we get out defensive core sorted, does that give us enough of a window to win the cup. This also assumes we can resign him for a good price at the end of his current deal.

Maybe I'm wrong but it seems like whoever plays with Crosby, elite or minor league, all they have to do is be in the right spot, catch the puck on their blade and shoot.
- SuperSchennBros

maybe im wrong, but it seems like you just made the best possible case for him being the MVP right there.

Mock Draft by Patrick King

Has the Flyers going with Travis Sanheim

http://www.sportsnet.ca/h...for-florida-in-nhl-draft/

The only reason I could see it happening is Hextall's comments about giving us a window of years to win the cup. We won't be fielding a Stanley Cup caliber defense until some of the guys we drafted or will draft make the roster. Coburn has value now to rework our defensive core, and, if he is 33-35 by the time we get out defensive core sorted, does that give us enough of a window to win the cup. This also assumes we can resign him for a good price at the end of his current deal.
- aflyerpower8

I like what Hex had to say. Just words but I am hopeful.

Flyers need to admit they are years out from establishing themselves as a top tier team comparable to the Kings, Bruins or Hawks. Identify which players will be around and productive at that time, and build for the future. If the fans cant suffer through a few years of proper building, instead of rash moves to continuously make the playoffs they deserve to have losing shoved up their ass.

Unless of course, the Flyers can find a Doughty via trade and open that window sooner. Build to that window, and build it right. A top team that can be consistently such for a few years. Not one relying so heavily on hot/cold streaks.

Nutter be crazy.