Why are so many people on the "Move Coburn" bandwagon?
- 77rams

I'd put him into untouchable category myself unless the deal blows my pants off.

The most overall talented d-man on the roster imo, and the closest thing to a top pairing guy they have. Can be inconsistent as hell at times but like a wart he has grown on me.

Durable, good speed and fairly young. I'd be in favour of trading every other current d-man on the squad before Coburn.

i dont think it is a good move for the flyers. they have good wing depth, relatively speaking. and simmer brings that power element.

that being said, some of the early posts really seemed to devalue perron, which surprised me.
- stayinthefnnet

I'll have to back-read a bit. Perron is good, but I really dont see him as enough of an improvement to warrent moving a top four D man in his prime form what is already a shakey D core.

So yeah, the only way I consider moving Coburn is if he's part of a deal to bring a legit top line LW back. I just don't view Perron as that.

Entirely unimportant, has no correlation on winning
- Jsaquella

The problem is that it excludes what really wins Stanley Cups. Clutch scoring and defensive plays, and clutch goal tending. Without that, non of those teams win the Cup, regardless of how high of a Fenwick or Corsi percentage they have.

For now on they should give the Conn Smythe to the player on the Cup winning team with the highest Fenwick percentage. Matt Greene should've won the Conn Smythe. His Fenwick percentage for the playoffs was 59%. Highest on the team.

The point didn't get missed. And this response shows that my point in rebuttal was obviously missed. And it's not a coincidence that Grossmann was used as the example. My reply to your post using Grossmann as an example, hit the nail on the head, with how a team can support a player like Grossmann, to the point where they can become better as a team at ES.
- MJL

Which was the entire point I was making. Had you read and comprehended the entire post, rather than misunderstanding it as an attack on Grossmann, we would have had no need for a rebuttal.

So yes, I get your rebuttal, because it was whole point of my original post...which you missed. Keep swinging for those fences, tho

I'll have to back-read a bit. Perron is good, but I really dont see him as enough of an improvement to warrent moving a top four D man in his prime form what is already a shakey D core.

So yeah, the only way I consider moving Coburn is if he's part of a deal to bring a legit top line LW back. I just don't view Perron as that.
- hereticpride

im in agreement with you. i think perron is a nice player. but moving coburn for him would make the flyers a considerably worse team overall.

i know theyre linked a lot, but i really dont see EDM and philly as good trade partners.

yeah. attitude concerns or whatever. i think the guy would be a 35 goal guy consistently with either giroux or crosby.

i think b schenn will be a pretty good player. but i dont think he will be that.
- stayinthefnnet

He doesn't like the city, but under two coaches now he has found his way to the dog house. By all accounts for what I know being attitude and effort on the ice.

I think he would carry a hell of a price tag, much more than bSchenn and not sure I'd be willing to pay that for a guy like Kane. Flyers need a more 'Laperierre/Pronger' culture, not one that Kane would bring imo.

Although I do think you see a real difference in Carter as a player, so maybe Kane can mature himself.

Which was the entire point I was making. Had you read and comprehended the entire post, rather than misunderstanding it as an attack on Grossmann, we would have had no need for a rebuttal.

So yes, I get your rebuttal, because it was whole point of my original post...which you missed. Keep swinging for those fences, tho
- Jsaquella

funny, i tell ben revere the same thing. but i think he is just ignoring me out of spite.

yeah. attitude concerns or whatever. i think the guy would be a 35 goal guy consistently with either giroux or crosby.

i think b schenn will be a pretty good player. but i dont think he will be that.
- stayinthefnnet

I would be surprised if Kane is dealt. However, the Jets are paying 7 players over $4 million/yr. They have the smallest arena in the league, and haven't been in the playoffs since the Atlanta days. Missing playoff revenue really hurts.

As much talent as he has on the ice. He has appeared disinterested at times, not to mention numerous off ice incidents in the Winnipeg area. It's one thing for a small market team to take a financial risk on a Shea Weber (who had zero issues on or off the ice before signing his contract), but $24 million on the table for a player who might as easily score 15 goals a year because he doesn't like where he plays is a significant gamble.

I'll have to back-read a bit. Perron is good, but I really dont see him as enough of an improvement to warrent moving a top four D man in his prime form what is already a shakey D core.

So yeah, the only way I consider moving Coburn is if he's part of a deal to bring a legit top line LW back. I just don't view Perron as that.
- hereticpride

The rumor I saw was B.Schenn & Coburn for Perron & either Klefbom or Marincin. Both are intriguing prospects, but neither is a sure thing. If they made that move, they'd need another good defenseman added

He doesn't like the city, but under two coaches now he has found his way to the dog house. By all accounts for what I know being attitude and effort on the ice.

I think he would carry a hell of a price tag, much more than bSchenn and not sure I'd be willing to pay that for a guy like Kane. Flyers need a more 'Laperierre/Pronger' culture, not one that Kane would bring imo.

Although I do think you see a real difference in Carter as a player, so maybe Kane can mature himself.
- flyer_nutter

as someone who has always thought carter wasted a lot of his ability, i have seen a huge growth in him. so kane has time. granted, it would definitely be something that would cause me to at least temper the return going the other way, and if it caused the deal to fall through, then fine. but its not something that would be automatically dispositive of me avoiding him.

I'll have to back-read a bit. Perron is good, but I really dont see him as enough of an improvement to warrent moving a top four D man in his prime form what is already a shakey D core.

So yeah, the only way I consider moving Coburn is if he's part of a deal to bring a legit top line LW back. I just don't view Perron as that.
- hereticpride

I'd have to have a significant d-man returning in that package or it will only be subtraction by addition.

...did I say that right?

The problem is that it excludes what really wins Stanley Cups. Clutch scoring and defensive plays, and clutch goal tending. Without that, non of those teams win the Cup, regardless of how high of a Fenwick or Corsi percentage they have.

For now on they should give the Conn Smythe to the player on the Cup winning team with the highest Fenwick percentage. Matt Greene should've won the Conn Smythe. His Fenwick percentage for the playoffs was 59%. Highest on the team.
- MJL

If you wish to overstate things, feel free. Kind of telling that year in and out, the top possession teams tend to be in the final four with a great deal of regularity.

Entirely unimportant, has no correlation on winning
- Jsaquella

... but clutch scoring! Oh wait, you're telling me the more you have the puck, the more chance you have of scoring a clutch goal? /jawdrop

He doesn't like the city, but under two coaches now he has found his way to the dog house. By all accounts for what I know being attitude and effort on the ice.

I think he would carry a hell of a price tag, much more than bSchenn and not sure I'd be willing to pay that for a guy like Kane. Flyers need a more 'Laperierre/Pronger' culture, not one that Kane would bring imo.

Although I do think you see a real difference in Carter as a player, so maybe Kane can mature himself.
- flyer_nutter

Someone just needs to knock out about 4 of his front teeth like Carter and then suddenly you have a mature two-way goal scoring forward on your hands. I wish it was that easy.

The rumor I saw was B.Schenn & Coburn for Perron & either Klefbom or Marincin. Both are intriguing prospects, but neither is a sure thing. If they made that move, they'd need another good defenseman added
- Jsaquella

there is definitely good objective value on the EDM side of the coin there. no question. but, i dont know if the flyers are in a position to make that trade with the way their roster is currently set up.

the trick is to use pieces other than coburn to acquire guys like klefbom or marincin. no, not sure things yet. but thats pretty much the easiest way to acquire that type of defender. once they actually become something, theyre gone.

... but clutch scoring! Oh wait, you're telling me the more you have the puck, the more chance you have of scoring a clutch goal? /jawdrop
- Tomahawk

Clutch play only comes from luck and hard work

I would be surprised if Kane is dealt. However, the Jets are paying 7 players over $4 million/yr. They have the smallest arena in the league, and haven't been in the playoffs since the Atlanta days. Missing playoff revenue really hurts.

As much talent as he has on the ice. He has appeared disinterested at times, not to mention numerous off ice incidents in the Winnipeg area. It's one thing for a small market team to take a financial risk on a Shea Weber (who had zero issues on or off the ice before signing his contract), but $24 million on the table for a player who might as easily score 15 goals a year because he doesn't like where he plays is a significant gamble.
- ravishingone

Jets aren't really in trouble though. I see a lot of people saying they are desperate and such, they are far from. The fans and True North know that FA is not going to be a way to build the team. They will have to do it the slow and painful way with the draft. I don't like the team myself but cant ignore they are building a decent product. Bogosian, Enstrom, Trouba and Morrissey are a really solid top 4 going down the line.

Scheifele was kind of a head scratcher but seems to be putting it together. There are a few guys with trade value like Buff and Kane that might not fit into the future. I don't like either, b/c you know the price will be high.

Team is the biggest thing in the city, continuously sold out with a lot of merchandise sales by what I can see anyway.

there is definitely good objective value on the EDM side of the coin there. no question. but, i dont know if the flyers are in a position to make that trade with the way their roster is currently set up.

the trick is to use pieces other than coburn to acquire guys like klefbom or marincin. no, not sure things yet. but thats pretty much the easiest way to acquire that type of defender. once they actually become something, theyre gone.
- stayinthefnnet

Zhitnik (aka Andrew MacDonald) for Marincin/Klefbom.... it's going to be a thing.

Which was the entire point I was making. Had you read and comprehended the entire post, rather than misunderstanding it as an attack on Grossmann, we would have had no need for a rebuttal.

So yes, I get your rebuttal, because it was whole point of my original post...which you missed. Keep swinging for those fences, tho
- Jsaquella

The rebuttal was for the statement that you made of "When a guy like Grossmann can't do anything with the puck except dump it in or chip it out, you lose possession of it".

I think that is false. And in my reply I stated that Grossmann is capable of making an outlet pass to a teammate and moving the puck, if there is puck support from the forwards. When a player like Grossmann, who has limited puck skills, is outnumbered on the puck and pressured, and doesn't have support and an outlet for the puck. Well he's not going to skate out of it, an make a dazzling stretch pass because the gap between forwards and defense is like the Grand Canyon, and they're already up ice. That's the biggest problem with this team. Other teams do a much better job of that. And that's why a player like Matt Greene can have solid possession numbers, even with the same limited puck skills. And this is also more evidence of why Corsi is such a bad stat for looking at players. Because it's dependent on far more then just the specific player the number is assigned for.

I don't think Giroux won. I think Crosby did.
- bmeltzer

yeah but that argument starts to lose some luster when you consider that malkin missed 20 games. letang was essentially a lost season. i know dupuis isnt exactly OV in the goal department, but he was still a dependable top 6 guy, who had good chemistry with crosby. not to mention, there was no replacement coming in. it was brian gibbons.
- stayinthefnnet

Yeah...except that Malkin missed over 20 games this year, his first-line winger went down for the year, he had a host of rotating AHL wingers, the defense was beset with crippling injuries to top players, and their bottom-6 was a mess. And through it all, he still led the league in points, was a top faceoff man, was a 2-way threat, and led them to a division title.

I'd say it was a Hart-worthy year.
- jmatchett383

Sorry for responding so late.

Sure Crosby has a serious case for winning the Hart Trophy and probably will win it. At the same time, my argument for Giroux is this. The late start, the amount of points he was able to post above everyone else in the league when Giroux was finally able to turn it on. Most importantly, do the Philadelphia Flyers make the playoffs without Claude Giroux in the line up? With Sidney Crosby, he's so well offensively supported with the likes of Malkin, Neal, Letang and Kunitz is still pretty impressive. Guys like Malkin and Letang can still miss time and the offense is still rather scary.

In our case, 99.9% is ready to jump from the Vincent LeCavalier ship. Love him or hate Vinny, if we lose Giroux to a Stamkos like injury, we become that much more thin and inexperienced at center. I think our chances of making the playoffs become officially lost. I think our eggs are all in the Giroux basket and have to cross our fingers that he sees 80 plus games a season. Giroux in my opinion doesn't even have a trigger man. A pure shooter to play with. Both Crosby and Getzlaf do.

Am I overrating how important Giroux is to the Flyers?

Someone just needs to knock out about 4 of his front teeth like Carter and then suddenly you have a mature two-way goal scoring forward on your hands. I wish it was that easy.

- ravishingone

People can say injuries, support cast or whatever but Carter played nothing like he did the last couple of years in LA, in his time with Philadelphia.

Much more assertive and mature player imo. Good for him.

there is definitely good objective value on the EDM side of the coin there. no question. but, i dont know if the flyers are in a position to make that trade with the way their roster is currently set up.

the trick is to use pieces other than coburn to acquire guys like klefbom or marincin. no, not sure things yet. but thats pretty much the easiest way to acquire that type of defender. once they actually become something, theyre gone.
- stayinthefnnet

Coburn gets too much heat locally. He's a good guy, can play a top pair & be highly effective. Replacing him is not going to be cheap or easy for Philly. But if a deal like that leads to a second move, great. Otherwise, it makes no sense for the Flyers short term

If you wish to overstate things, feel free. Kind of telling that year in and out, the top possession teams tend to be in the final four with a great deal of regularity.
- Jsaquella

Look at the individual games in the playoffs. I've looked at the numbers for pretty much every playoff game this past playoff season, with that very thought in mind. The number of games where teams won the possession battle and lost, or lost the possession battle and won, are countless.
Bottom line, those teams make the final four because of other factors that have much greater relevance then possession. Take those regular season numbers and throw it out the window, once the puck drops in the playoffs.

there is definitely good objective value on the EDM side of the coin there. no question. but, i dont know if the flyers are in a position to make that trade with the way their roster is currently set up.

the trick is to use pieces other than coburn to acquire guys like klefbom or marincin. no, not sure things yet. but thats pretty much the easiest way to acquire that type of defender. once they actually become something, theyre gone.
- stayinthefnnet

Trading Coburn isn't even a thought in my mind.

Jets aren't really in trouble though. I see a lot of people saying they are desperate and such, they are far from. The fans and True North know that FA is not going to be a way to build the team. They will have to do it the slow and painful way with the draft. I don't like the team myself but cant ignore they are building a decent product. Bogosian, Enstrom, Trouba and Morrissey are a really solid top 4 going down the line.

Scheifele was kind of a head scratcher but seems to be putting it together. There are a few guys with trade value like Buff and Kane that might not fit into the future. I don't like either, b/c you know the price will be high.
- flyer_nutter

Maybe my previous post slanted towards desperation because of finances. I guess I was trying to point out it is easier for a large market team like the Flyers to take on a financial risk of acquiring a player who is owed significant money over a small market team.

Your point about Kane being in the doghouse with now two separate coaches has to have gotten the attention of the ownership and upper management. His talent is undeniable, as long as he is engaged he is dynamic, disinterested he is Zherdev. You see all the physical skill, but are left wanting more because he just teases with all that on-ice ability.