I wouldn't do that deal, because you'd have to jettison half the team for the salaries to work. It has to at least be plausible.

And no, there is no deal in the NHL that I would trade Crosby for. I don't care if it's Toews, Kane, Keith, and Seabrook for free, I wouldn't do it.
- jmatchett383

And if Sid goes down with another bad concussion, the team goes from having two generational centers to none. Maybe if Sid didn't have his injury history it would be worth exploring.

I'll say this, if the team were able to develop a couple of good, young forwards this conversation doesn't happen. To me, that's why Ray Shero is looking for a new job.

Gotta look at what hes now going to be viewed as... starting to age, possibly injury prone, and an average season last year. That is just not commanding what he made to be matched is all.
- Guile

There are teams like Toronto Vancouver Flyers Buf Det Pitts Fla and the list goes on, trying to move bad contracts . Umberger is a decent player at a decent cap hit.

Because Crosby is the best player in the NHL, plain and simple. You don't trade the best player in the NHL who happens to be the face of the league and your captain. And don't give me, "But Gretzky..." because that was a different time and a different set of circumstances.
- jmatchett383

He is the best player in the NHL during the regular season Ill give you that, I think Toews is an all around better player.
How does being the face of the franchise make the team better?
He may be the captain but he's certainly not captain material.

So aside from the bottom-6, you have the same core as the 2008 and 2009 teams. What has changed in those years? Same coach, same GM, same core. What's different?
- jmatchett383

Erosion in work ethic since MT's structured teams, plus Bylsma's increasing ego and being unable take into account that this "get to our game" crap, doesn't work and hockey is an ever evolving game that he is unable to adapt to.

You do know Malkin is Russian and Crsoby is a better hockey player right?
- Grinder47

I was waiting for the "he's Russian" to bring logic in the debate.

As I pointed out, I think the team plays better when it just Malkin opposed to when its just Sid and I think the difference between the two is very minimal.

He is the best player in the NHL during the regular season Ill give you that, I think Toews is an all around better player.
How does being the face of the franchise make the team better?
He may be the captain but he's certainly not captain material.
- all-pgh

What doesn't make him captain material? Please tell me why all of you people all of a sudden think he is a terrible leader. Last season Toews had 3 goals and 11 assists and won a cup. I remember him sitting on the bench with his head down because he had no answer for his game. His team lifted him up, played better, and Toews got to lift another cup without being the go to guy.
Sid doesn't have that luxury. This team isn't much of a team right now and that is not Crosby's fault.

Anyway, back to the main topic at hand, did Botterill have any final say in the Penguins draft selections or did he do all the work for Ray, only to let Ray make the final decisions? If so, does Botterill know what holes to fill? How to avoid Ray's mistakes, learn from those mistakes, turn those around? I think he is the right guy for the job.

If they don't hire him, the AGM from Boston looks to be the best runner up.

What doesn't make him captain material? Please tell me why all of you people all of a sudden think he is a terrible leader. Last season Toews had 3 goals and 11 assists and won a cup. I remember him sitting on the bench with his head down because he had no answer for his game. His team lifted him up, played better, and Toews got to lift another cup without being the go to guy.
Sid doesn't have that luxury. This team isn't much of a team right now and that is not Crosby's fault.
- usethe1-2-2

The Toews is better than Crosby argument is purely a "what have you done for me lately argument.

In last year's playoffs, in essentially two series, Crosby outscored Jonathan Toews in 4. People questioned his leadership then, questioned if he was hurt, etc etc etc.

Jonathan Toews is a heck of a hockey player, and I'd love for him to be on my team, but to say that he's better than Crosby is a bit myopic.

The Toews is better than Crosby argument is purely a "what have you done for me lately argument.

In last year's playoffs, in essentially two series, Crosby outscored Jonathan Toews in 4. People questioned his leadership then, questioned if he was hurt, etc etc etc.

Jonathan Toews is a heck of a hockey player, and I'd love for him to be on my team, but to say that he's better than Crosby is a bit myopic.
- rival22

Crosby's passed the torch the last 4 years running....to a different player every year it seems.

The Toews is better than Crosby argument is purely a "what have you done for me lately argument.

In last year's playoffs, in essentially two series, Crosby outscored Jonathan Toews in 4. People questioned his leadership then, questioned if he was hurt, etc etc etc.

Jonathan Toews is a heck of a hockey player, and I'd love for him to be on my team, but to say that he's better than Crosby is a bit myopic.
- rival22

And truly the best argument for this is the article on Yahoo about four days ago on how Anze Kopitar was now the best two way player in the league, then today an article on how Anze needs to play to the level of Toews if the Kings want to win hahahaha

And if Sid goes down with another bad concussion, the team goes from having two generational centers to none. Maybe if Sid didn't have his injury history it would be worth exploring.

I'll say this, if the team were able to develop a couple of good, young forwards this conversation doesn't happen. To me, that's why Ray Shero is looking for a new job.
- madmike71

That's why I said he's the ultimate insurance policy.

By that mentality, I guess the Canadiens should have acquired Miller at the TDL in case Price got injured.

Erosion in work ethic since MT's structured teams, plus Bylsma's increasing ego and being unable take into account that this "get to our game" crap, doesn't work and hockey is an ever evolving game that he is unable to adapt to.
- nbartley9

So it has nothing to do with the core group of players, at all?

I was waiting for the "he's Russian" to bring logic in the debate.

As I pointed out, I think the team plays better when it just Malkin opposed to when its just Sid and I think the difference between the two is very minimal.
- all-pgh

Wait: are you actually saying that you think Malkin is better than Crosby? Really, are you?

And truly the best argument for this is the article on Yahoo about four days ago on how Anze Kopitar was now the best two way player in the league, then today an article on how Anze needs to play to the level of Toews if the Kings want to win hahahaha
- usethe1-2-2

That sums it up perfectly.

So it has nothing to do with the core group of players, at all?
- jmatchett383

You have been on here just poking holes, what would you do? What is the real problem? You took other legit points about the organizations recent flaws and then made them about trading one of the big two centers. So what is wrong with the Penguins?

So aside from the bottom-6, you have the same core as the 2008 and 2009 teams. What has changed in those years? Same coach, same GM, same core. What's different?
- jmatchett383

The salaries changed. Letang, Malkin were on ELC's. Dupes was on the 3rd line. We had Staal on a ELC. We also had Gonchar on D, Scuds and Orpik, Kunitz were 5 yrs younger, Sykora and Fedenenko were at the tail end of their prime. Billy G was amped up one last run, and we had Rupp and Cooke. That's a massive change IMO when you consider you take Dupes a 3rd liner and promote him to the 1st, no 3rd or 4th line players, depleted aging Dmen. Looking at the 08 and 09 rosters, did anyone really think the 14' roster was that good?

The salaries changed. Letang, Malkin were on ELC's. Dupes was on the 3rd line. We had Staal on a ELC. We also had Gonchar on D, Scuds and Orpik, Kunitz were 5 yrs younger, Sykora and Fedenenko were at the tail end of their prime. Billy G was amped up one last run, and we had Rupp and Cooke. That's a massive change IMO when you consider you take Dupes a 3rd liner and promote him to the 1st, no 3rd or 4th line players, depleted aging Dmen. Looking at the 08 and 09 rosters, did anyone really think the 14' roster was that good?
- sammy87

Dont forget true role players like Hall and Talbot. Kennedy was a 15 goal threat with great tenacity.

You have been on here just poking holes, what would you do? What is the real problem? You took other legit points about the organizations recent flaws and then made them about trading one of the big two centers. So what is wrong with the Penguins?
- usethe1-2-2

Well, the bottom-6 was a mess, but that had something to do with injuries. When Dupuis went down, everyone needed to jump up in place, so that created a series of holes and players in situations they couldn't handle. However, the fact that Dupuis was extended at his cost was not wise. He's a very good complimentary player, but at his age, his production will likely not increase, yet he's making more money now than at any point in his career. Same when Letang went down: you had some AHL-caliber defensemen who acquitted themselves well, but shouldn't have been playing.

They do no have enough wingers or goalies, having stocked up on defensemen for the last number of years. Their system lacks many top-6 players (Archibald is their best candidate) and their goalie cupboard, while not bare, is dry (Jarry could be a solid NHL player one day).

They negotiated a deal with Letang when his value was at its zenith, and, stroke not taken into account, he has not shown that he will be a good return on investment. Marc-Andre Fleury, while being possibly the most athletically gifted goalie in the game today, has shown a tendency to make mental gaffes from which he cannot recover. This year, aside from one small hiccup in the first round, he was able to play a relatively good, strong game. Will this hold up? If not, what are the options moving forward from within or via UFA?

My point was that they have the best player in the game, and his name is Sidney Crosby. He plays center and has a cap hit of $8.787M for, basically, life. They have another player who plays the same position, makes the same amount of money, and is not the best player in the game. My point is that, since you are lacking in so many key areas, and since you have 2 highly-paid superstars who play the same position, it would seem to make sense to use one of them, preferably the one not widely considered to be the best player in the game, to fill in some of those holes, possibly while increasing your cap space to address even more needs.

You guys all complain about not having enough depth, but refuse to move your second-line center (who would, yes, be a #1 on about 24 teams), who is your best trading chip, to address those needs. Maybe you're hoping for Uncle Gary to giftwrap you some wingers, I guess?

Dont forget true role players like Hall and Talbot. Kennedy was a 15 goal threat with great tenacity.
- usethe1-2-2

Exactly! Those years were much more complete teams. Now when you consider that 71 was on his ELC you can do that. With 58 making a raise, I think it will always be difficult to have a complete team with 37% tied up in 3 players. 87 will never be traded, Malkin only moves for a Hershel Walker type deal and with a full NTC that will be near impossible. Letang is the only 1 that can be easily moved. That being said what do you do? Replace your best Dman with another equally skilled Dman for a similar price? Sign Nisk to $6mil? I don't think that necessarily makes the team any better. With few F prospects available and a bunch of D prospects unknown, this team will be a huge ?

Thanks SHero!

The salaries changed. Letang, Malkin were on ELC's. Dupes was on the 3rd line. We had Staal on a ELC. We also had Gonchar on D, Scuds and Orpik, Kunitz were 5 yrs younger, Sykora and Fedenenko were at the tail end of their prime. Billy G was amped up one last run, and we had Rupp and Cooke. That's a massive change IMO when you consider you take Dupes a 3rd liner and promote him to the 1st, no 3rd or 4th line players, depleted aging Dmen. Looking at the 08 and 09 rosters, did anyone really think the 14' roster was that good?
- sammy87

I know one message board thread full of posters who did back in October, even back in April.

Exactly! Those years were much more complete teams. Now when you consider that 71 was on his ELC you can do that. With 58 making a raise, I think it will always be difficult to have a complete team with 37% tied up in 3 players. 87 will never be traded, Malkin only moves for a Hershel Walker type deal and with a full NTC that will be near impossible. Letang is the only 1 that can be easily moved. That being said what do you do? Replace your best Dman with another equally skilled Dman for a similar price? Sign Nisk to $6mil? I don't think that necessarily makes the team any better. With few F prospects available and a bunch of D prospects unknown, this team will be a huge ?

Thanks SHero!
- sammy87

That's kind of my point. You could (potentially) trade your 2nd best center as well as Letang, and land a better/equal defenseman for a lower price + more (a lot more) for your #2 center and then trade Letang for a number of complimentary pieces (1st/2nd/3rd line forwards/goalies).

I know it's unpopular, but it's what I'd do.

Well, the bottom-6 was a mess, but that had something to do with injuries. When Dupuis went down, everyone needed to jump up in place, so that created a series of holes and players in situations they couldn't handle. However, the fact that Dupuis was extended at his cost was not wise. He's a very good complimentary player, but at his age, his production will likely not increase, yet he's making more money now than at any point in his career. Same when Letang went down: you had some AHL-caliber defensemen who acquitted themselves well, but shouldn't have been playing.

They do no have enough wingers or goalies, having stocked up on defensemen for the last number of years. Their system lacks many top-6 players (Archibald is their best candidate) and their goalie cupboard, while not bare, is dry (Jarry could be a solid NHL player one day).

They negotiated a deal with Letang when his value was at its zenith, and, stroke not taken into account, he has not shown that he will be a good return on investment. Marc-Andre Fleury, while being possibly the most athletically gifted goalie in the game today, has shown a tendency to make mental gaffes from which he cannot recover. This year, aside from one small hiccup in the first round, he was able to play a relatively good, strong game. Will this hold up? If not, what are the options moving forward from within or via UFA?

My point was that they have the best player in the game, and his name is Sidney Crosby. He plays center and has a cap hit of $8.787M for, basically, life. They have another player who plays the same position, makes the same amount of money, and is not the best player in the game. My point is that, since you are lacking in so many key areas, and since you have 2 highly-paid superstars who play the same position, it would seem to make sense to use one of them, preferably the one not widely considered to be the best player in the game, to fill in some of those holes, possibly while increasing your cap space to address even more needs.

You guys all complain about not having enough depth, but refuse to move your second-line center (who would, yes, be a #1 on about 24 teams), who is your best trading chip, to address those needs. Maybe you're hoping for Uncle Gary to giftwrap you some wingers, I guess?
- jmatchett383

I've been saying that for a while. I think Shero's most critical mistake was extending Malkin over Staal. Staal is a very solid 2nd line center and much cheaper Malkin could have been moved for solid roster spots and picks to keep the team going into the future.

I know one message board thread full of posters who did back in October, even back in April.
- jmatchett383

I don't know about that.... even back in training camp when guys like Matt freakin' D'Agostino and Chuck Kobasew were our saviors on the third line, a lot of people had issues.

When the team got healthy down the stretch and showed flashes of being a complete team with secondary scoring in the first round, I think we sort of all let our expectations rise.

Also, screw the Rangers.

I don't know about that.... even back in training camp when guys like Matt freakin' D'Agostino and Chuck Kobasew were our saviors on the third line, a lot of people had issues.

When the team got healthy down the stretch and showed flashes of being a complete team with secondary scoring in the first round, I think we sort of all let our expectations rise.
- rival22

I think the season had a few bright spots for the future. Maata looked great until he sort of hit a wall in the playoffs. Gibbons and Megna (damn him!) look like solid future pieces. Pouliot looks ready to step right in to the defense and produce. They just need to find spots for them all going forward.