JMO, the Neal/Niskanen deal for Gogo set this entire "collect PMDs" thing going. He saw how other GMs valued PMDs and he thought it you start collecting them, he could then trade them off to get the forwards needed. This is sort of the way how the Pirates failed for many years, always drafting pitching in the early rounds and neglecting bats, in hopes you can trade one of these arms down the road for a significant haul.

His drafting philosophies of neglecting one position really cost us. His entire "asset management" philosophy wasn't good if you really think about it. Joe Morrow, one of those high end PMD prospects you drafted, goes for an aging Brendan Morrow. Two second round picks for a slow Doug Murray, a guy that fell out of favor in SJ; wasn't being used and wasn't going to be resigned in SJ. That was a heavy price to pay.

This is why if you attempt to deal a Neal and or a Letang, its important to not only get a roster player back of significance, but a forward prospect as well. The farm system is devoid of talent at forward.
- Oneonta Penguin

Actually, it was his dealing of Whitney for Kunitz & Tangradi that got him on the "collect PMDs" path. But I get what you're saying. He pulled the same deal 3 teams essentially, but it was only the 3rd one (Joe Morrow for Brendan Morrow) that was mostly a "meh" deal.

I have no idea what the qualifications are to be a GM. I look at people like Gillis, Holmgren, Mcphee, Feaster, and Milbury who all have done completely horrible at their jobs, yet are still in the industry. Managing a budget, scouting, player and coach evals, and establishing a plan, managing assets all really don't seem like complicated items. Other than Shero's dad being a HOF coach, what exactly were his quals? Apparanty there aren't too many ppl capable of doing the job since those clowns are still employed.
- sammy87

Most of those guys either had success coaching that bought them some good will in the GM position for a few years. Or they came in and made some great moves early on in their tenures that bought them about 4-5 years of good-will in hopes of them hitting another one out of the park like their early deals/signings/drafting. Milbury was an ass-clown but won a lot as a coach. Holmgren came into the job and made a couple great deals early on for Philly. And while I can't really claim to have that much other knowledge of about the other guys, I can't help but guess that it was a combination of some good decisions early or in previous positions that bought them a few years of good-will at the GM position later down the line.

I don't know if you can blame anyone else for Shero's personal choices. Perhaps the scouting team needs to be reassessed though.

None of us know what opinions Botterill holds about how to built a hockey team, or what his input had been behind closed doors.

The only think we can do is look towards some of his decision making in the areas that he oversaw.

Like many NHL teams, the Pens' Assistant GM is basically the GM of their AHL affiliate. I'm no expert in the style of play or roster creation on that team, but for a team with very little drafted forward prospects, he has built a pretty competitive team there the past few of seasons.

And if his role truly was oversee “professional and amateur scouting and overseeing prospect development”, the drafts the last few years look better than the years prior to that, so maybe he has helped?

The impossible thing about predicting or criticizing front office moves, is that we really have no idea what goes on behind doors as far as what ownership is looking for and what a candidate is offering.

In terms of Botteril's candidacy, it might be less about whether he was Shero's yes man, and more about whether he's willing to be Lemieux/Burkle/Morehouse's yes man.

They were all very clear about their vision for the Penguins' on-ice product. Makes no sense to bring in an experienced GM with their own vision.

Maybe all these injuries players played with is why Dan still has a job. First Bennett and now Letang. How much longer before Crosby's injury comes out?

Burn this female dog down

Let's look at Shero's drafts... Like I said before, the second half appears to be much better than the first half:

2006 NHL Entry Draft
2 C Jordan Staal
32 D Carl Sneep
65 D Brian Strait
125 G Chad Johnson
185 D Timo Seppänen

Can't fault or give him credit for this one... He was in the job for like a month, and relied on the Pens existing scouting.


2007 NHL Entry Draft
20 C Angelo Esposito
51 C Keven Veilleux
78 D Robert Bortuzzo
80 C Casey Pierro-Zabotel
111 L Luca Caputi
118 D Alex Grant
141 D Jake Muzzin
171 C Dustin Jeffrey

Pretty bad.. Esposito did help us land Hossa, so that wasn't bad. Bortuzzo is still here and is good for a 3rd round pick.


2008 NHL Entry Draft
120 C Nathan Moon
150 G Alexander Pechurskiy
180 G Patrick Killeen
210 D Nick D'Agostino

Hard to judge this one... When pick trades help, it's hard to criticize, for these picks we got (rd #1) Hossa trade, (rd #2) Hall Gill, and (rd #3) Laraque. The rest were stiffs though. Nicholas D'Agostino is still in the system, but has pretty much reached his 7th rounder ceiling.


2009 NHL Entry Draft
30 D Simon Després
61 D Philip Samuelsson
63 R Ben Hanowski
121 R Nick Petersen
123 D Alex Velischek
151 C Andy Bathgate
181 D Viktor Ekbom

This is where things start picking up a little. Despres and even Samuelsson have shots to be NHL'ers for years to come. Even Hanowski (traded in Iginla trade) could contribute.

Illustrating the problem that the Pens have put themselves in with no contributing NHL forwards, Hanowski is one of those guys who could play a bottom 6 role on a cheap entry level deal.

2010 NHL Entry Draft
20 R Beau Bennett
80 R Bryan Rust
110 R Tom Kühnhackl
140 L Kenny Agostino
152 D Joe Rogalski
170 D Reid McNeill

Verdict is out on Bennett, but has show good flashes. Rust could be a good bottom 6 player in the NHL someday. Kuhnackl has been a disappointment, but not sure Shero can be blamed for that. Injuries, and inconsistent play. Agostino was in Iginla deal. McNeill is a hardnosed defenseman for WBS, who could seen the NHL someday.


2011 NHL Entry Draft
23 D Joe Morrow
54 D Scott Harrington
144 C Dominik Uher
174 W Josh Archibald
209 C Scott Wilson

Easy to call Joe Morrow a bust now, but we were all ready for him to make the team after a strong preseason in 2011. Maybe the Pens ruined his development in WBS, but injuries haven't helped him much either. Scott Harrington could be a top 4 NHL defenseman, and Uher, Archibald and Wilson could someday get to the NHL. All in all, not a bad draft if a few of these guys make it.


2012 NHL Entry Draft
8 D Derrick Pouliot
22 D Olli Määttä
52 C Theodor Blueger
81 C Oskar Sundqvist
83 G Matt Murray
92 C Matia Marcantuoni
113 G Sean Maguire
143 C Clark Seymour
173 R Anton Zlobin

Maatta looks great, Pouliot looks great, and more importantly some of the forwards show good potential. Zlobin is playing well in the playoffs for WBS, and we've heard good things about Blueger and Sundqvist at times. Clark Seymour is a physical d-man, not sure where his ceiling is. Goalies have helped organizational depth.

2013 NHL Entry Draft
44 G Tristan Jarry
77 C Jake Guentzel
119 D Ryan Segalla
164 D Dane Birks
179 C Blaine Byron
209 L Troy Josephs

Way too early to tell.. Tristan Jarry has had a good season though. Guentzel and Byron had decent freshman seasons in college.


So, the trend is heading up... unfortunately in a couple low cap seasons, those early draft pick trades are biting us. Some of those trades helped us get to two Cup finals and win one, so you make those deals every time.

Perception is everything... if last years team got to the finals, you would probably call the Iginla/Morrow/Murray trades a success, but as they stand now, they hurt our long term depth.

A certain person seems to be dropping the ball on the gif postings here...


- Guile

Great shot!

Then he assaults a random person with the club, and proceeds to run like a girl.

Still, great shot.

I know it won't happen and is extremely unpopular, but I think one of the "core" pieces whose name isn't Crosby should be moved.

Sorry for all of the CAPS and "".
- jmatchett383

For the sake of argument and I know it will never happen but if you had to trade one of the two, why does Crosby automatically get a free pass over Malkin. Has he really done more for this team than Malkin in terms of making this team better.
When Crosby is out of the lineup, Malkin is a beast and the team as a whole plays much more responsibly. When Sid comes back its pedal to the metal and the team game is gone. When Geno is out, I don't think Sids game is elevated. If I could only have one, it would be Malkin.

Let's look at Shero's drafts... .
- rival22

Sorry, didnt' wanna quote that whole thing.

I think one of the problems has still been that the few F prospects drafted have either been undersized or mediocre (talent-wise) while the bulk of the legitimate NHL-caliber prospects have been on the blue line. Not necessarily a problem if they're traded off as needed, but when compared to the NHL-level F talent sometimes skipped over (looking at Brandon Saad mostly because it's the most obvious) to get a Joe Morrow, I can understand the complaint.

Let's look at Shero's drafts... Like I said before, the second half appears to be much better than the first half:

2006 NHL Entry Draft
2 C Jordan Staal
32 D Carl Sneep
65 D Brian Strait
125 G Chad Johnson
185 D Timo Seppänen

Can't fault or give him credit for this one... He was in the job for like a month, and relied on the Pens existing scouting.


2007 NHL Entry Draft
20 C Angelo Esposito
51 C Keven Veilleux
78 D Robert Bortuzzo
80 C Casey Pierro-Zabotel
111 L Luca Caputi
118 D Alex Grant
141 D Jake Muzzin
171 C Dustin Jeffrey

Pretty bad.. Esposito did help us land Hossa, so that wasn't bad. Bortuzzo is still here and is good for a 3rd round pick.


2008 NHL Entry Draft
120 C Nathan Moon
150 G Alexander Pechurskiy
180 G Patrick Killeen
210 D Nick D'Agostino

Hard to judge this one... When pick trades help, it's hard to criticize, for these picks we got (rd #1) Hossa trade, (rd #2) Hall Gill, and (rd #3) Laraque. The rest were stiffs though. Nicholas D'Agostino is still in the system, but has pretty much reached his 7th rounder ceiling.


2009 NHL Entry Draft
30 D Simon Després
61 D Philip Samuelsson
63 R Ben Hanowski
121 R Nick Petersen
123 D Alex Velischek
151 C Andy Bathgate
181 D Viktor Ekbom

This is where things start picking up a little. Despres and even Samuelsson have shots to be NHL'ers for years to come. Even Hanowski (traded in Iginla trade) could contribute.

Illustrating the problem that the Pens have put themselves in with no contributing NHL forwards, Hanowski is one of those guys who could play a bottom 6 role on a cheap entry level deal.

2010 NHL Entry Draft
20 R Beau Bennett
80 R Bryan Rust
110 R Tom Kühnhackl
140 L Kenny Agostino
152 D Joe Rogalski
170 D Reid McNeill

Verdict is out on Bennett, but has show good flashes. Rust could be a good bottom 6 player in the NHL someday. Kuhnackl has been a disappointment, but not sure Shero can be blamed for that. Injuries, and inconsistent play. Agostino was in Iginla deal. McNeill is a hardnosed defenseman for WBS, who could seen the NHL someday.


2011 NHL Entry Draft
23 D Joe Morrow
54 D Scott Harrington
144 C Dominik Uher
174 W Josh Archibald
209 C Scott Wilson

Easy to call Joe Morrow a bust now, but we were all ready for him to make the team after a strong preseason in 2011. Maybe the Pens ruined his development in WBS, but injuries haven't helped him much either. Scott Harrington could be a top 4 NHL defenseman, and Uher, Archibald and Wilson could someday get to the NHL. All in all, not a bad draft if a few of these guys make it.


2012 NHL Entry Draft
8 D Derrick Pouliot
22 D Olli Määttä
52 C Theodor Blueger
81 C Oskar Sundqvist
83 G Matt Murray
92 C Matia Marcantuoni
113 G Sean Maguire
143 C Clark Seymour
173 R Anton Zlobin

Maatta looks great, Pouliot looks great, and more importantly some of the forwards show good potential. Zlobin is playing well in the playoffs for WBS, and we've heard good things about Blueger and Sundqvist at times. Clark Seymour is a physical d-man, not sure where his ceiling is. Goalies have helped organizational depth.

2013 NHL Entry Draft
44 G Tristan Jarry
77 C Jake Guentzel
119 D Ryan Segalla
164 D Dane Birks
179 C Blaine Byron
209 L Troy Josephs

Way too early to tell.. Tristan Jarry has had a good season though. Guentzel and Byron had decent freshman seasons in college.


So, the trend is heading up... unfortunately in a couple low cap seasons, those early draft pick trades are biting us. Some of those trades helped us get to two Cup finals and win one, so you make those deals every time.

Perception is everything... if last years team got to the finals, you would probably call the Iginla/Morrow/Murray trades a success, but as they stand now, they hurt our long term depth.
- rival22

Though Maatta and Pouliot look like they're going to be good pro's did we really need 2 defenseman in the 1st round with a pretty glaring need for organizational forward depth?

Though Maatta and Pouliot look like they're going to be good pro's did we really need 2 defenseman in the 1st round with a pretty glaring need for organizational forward depth?
- dbell646

You gotta wonder how that went down though... They were dead set on getting Pouliot and did with Carolina's pick, maybe they had a forward at 22, but when Olli Maatta was still there, they couldn't pass him up... I mean, he is Olli Freakin' Maatta

While I see the reasoning behind it and I do ... I have brought it up numerous times, give me an example of a return that is very realistic to get done. We have seen the idea of STL giving Backes, Shattenkirk and another player on the roster as well as a pick. Do you think that move elevates STL, giving three major pieces from their roster? I don't. I think it would be counterproductive for them to do it. I don't think a team in the play-offs will give up three roster players, two being very significant and a high pick for one player. I think its retarded to deal him straight up to Nashville for Weber as some suggest. That doesn't solve a problem when you consider our lack of depth at forward.

If you can give me two examples ... I'm all ears

Thanks
- Oneonta Penguin

Well, first of all, the Penguins are in a "win now" mode, so it has to be for players who could step in right away and help. Backes and Shattenkirk fills a need for both teams and is a pretty fair swap cap-wise, but honestly, with the system the Blues play, it's not a good trade for them. It's a fair swap on paper, but not when it's implemented.

So, what is a trade where the Penguins can "win?" I'd suggest their best bet is for him to be a marketable name to a team that needs to grow a fanbase. This leaves us with Phoenix, Tampa Bay (sadly), Florida, Dallas, and maybe NYI.

Okay, so any team getting him is going to need him to be their #1C. So, right away, we can eliminate TB and NYI. Might as well take Dallas off as well, since Seguin seems to be growing into that role. That leaves us with Phoenix and Florida. So, what deals help the Penguins now, help them "win" the trade, and comply with the cap? Let's see:

Phoenix - I'm eliminating Doan, since he'd be the centerpiece, and he won't be around long enough to be an adequate return. So, I'd go with either:

To Pitt: K. Yandle, M. Boedker, M. Domi, 2014 1st
To Phx: E. Malkin, 2014 4th

To Pitt: O. Ekman-Larsson, M. Hanzal, 2014 2nd, 2014 3rd
To Phx: E. Malkin

Florida - not a lot to choose from. You could go for Luongo if you wanted (50/50) and deal MAF with Malkin, but the pickings for "now" are slim. Huberdeau went downhill, Bergenheim had a dud year, Kopecky missed half of the year. The strength of that team is in guys like Trocheck, Barkov, and Shore/Grimaldi. So I'd have to go with either:

To Pitt: R. Luongo, A. Barkov, Kulikov (RFA rights), 2014 1st, 2014 2nd, 2015 1st
To Fla: E. Malkin, MAF

To Pitt: A. Barkov, V. Trocheck, B. Campbell (40% salary retained), 2014 1st
To Fla: E. Malkin, 2014 3rd

That's the best I can come up with.

Ek saying Vancouver interested in DB with possible picks coming back... hmm too bad it won't happen bc ek wrote it lol


So r the mon fans going to go onto the nyr board and talk about getting a goalie ran.. like flyers did to us....

No clue but he should receive proper consideration as should all the candidates. I like the idea of using more youth, it helps with the cap and energizes the team. One of Disco Dan's main flaws was reliance on vets.

Well, first of all, the Penguins are in a "win now" mode, so it has to be for players who could step in right away and help. Backes and Shattenkirk fills a need for both teams and is a pretty fair swap cap-wise, but honestly, with the system the Blues play, it's not a good trade for them. It's a fair swap on paper, but not when it's implemented.

So, what is a trade where the Penguins can "win?" I'd suggest their best bet is for him to be a marketable name to a team that needs to grow a fanbase. This leaves us with Phoenix, Tampa Bay (sadly), Florida, Dallas, and maybe NYI.

Okay, so any team getting him is going to need him to be their #1C. So, right away, we can eliminate TB and NYI. Might as well take Dallas off as well, since Seguin seems to be growing into that role. That leaves us with Phoenix and Florida. So, what deals help the Penguins now, help them "win" the trade, and comply with the cap? Let's see:

Phoenix - I'm eliminating Doan, since he'd be the centerpiece, and he won't be around long enough to be an adequate return. So, I'd go with either:

To Pitt: K. Yandle, M. Boedker, M. Domi, 2014 1st
To Phx: E. Malkin, 2014 4th

To Pitt: O. Ekman-Larsson, M. Hanzal, 2014 2nd, 2014 3rd
To Phx: E. Malkin

Florida - not a lot to choose from. You could go for Luongo if you wanted (50/50) and deal MAF with Malkin, but the pickings for "now" are slim. Huberdeau went downhill, Bergenheim had a dud year, Kopecky missed half of the year. The strength of that team is in guys like Trocheck, Barkov, and Shore/Grimaldi. So I'd have to go with either:

To Pitt: R. Luongo, A. Barkov, Kulikov (RFA rights), 2014 1st, 2014 2nd, 2015 1st
To Fla: E. Malkin, MAF

To Pitt: A. Barkov, V. Trocheck, B. Campbell (40% salary retained), 2014 1st
To Fla: E. Malkin, 2014 3rd

That's the best I can come up with.
- jmatchett383

You are forgetting the no movement clause that Malkin has. I just can't see him going to Phoenix or Florida.

For the sake of argument and I know it will never happen but if you had to trade one of the two, why does Crosby automatically get a free pass over Malkin. Has he really done more for this team than Malkin in terms of making this team better.
When Crosby is out of the lineup, Malkin is a beast and the team as a whole plays much more responsibly. When Sid comes back its pedal to the metal and the team game is gone. When Geno is out, I don't think Sids game is elevated. If I could only have one, it would be Malkin.
- all-pgh

Because Crosby is the best player in the NHL, plain and simple. You don't trade the best player in the NHL who happens to be the face of the league and your captain. And don't give me, "But Gretzky..." because that was a different time and a different set of circumstances.

You are forgetting the no movement clause that Malkin has. I just can't see him going to Phoenix or Florida.
- rival22

No, I know he has it. But I was asked to come up with possible deals for Pittsburgh, not for Malkin. And yes, having him waive would be an issue.

EK has Nash gearing up for more entertaining hockey. Could be interested in Neal.

I was interested in the thought of Hornquest, not sure if its possible though.

I hate the thought of moving Letang. Whenever 58, 71 or 87 are out. The team is much more noticeably worse when Letang is out.

No clue but he should receive proper consideration as should all the candidates. I like the idea of using more youth, it helps with the cap and energizes the team. One of Disco Dan's main flaws was reliance on vets.
- powerhouse

I can almost understand in the playoffs, fearing young mistakes so bad that you play Craig Adams or whatever, but during the regular seasons, especially one that you are running away with, why not experiment with WBS guys?

Especially on defense, when you know that you are coming to a decision point this summer with guys like Orpik and Niskanen, and Martin eligible for an extension, give Despres a legit look as a top 4 guy... See what you have in guys like Dumoulin and Harrington. Instead of calling stupid Chris Conner up, take a look at Dominik Uher for a couple of games.

Cross Brisson off the list.

Cross Brisson off the list.
- Ryan_Wilson

Good. Did he make some sort of announcement or just say 'not interested" when asked or something?

EK has Nash gearing up for more entertaining hockey. Could be interested in Neal.

I was interested in the thought of Hornquest, not sure if its possible though.

I hate the thought of moving Letang. Whenever 58, 71 or 87 are out. The team is much more noticeably worse when Letang is out.
- sammy87

Man... seeing how incapable Neal is of creating offense without a top flight centerman, imagine how inept he'd be with Mike Fisher as his center lol.

Ek saying Vancouver interested in DB with possible picks coming back... hmm too bad it won't happen bc ek wrote it lol


So r the mon fans going to go onto the nyr board and talk about getting a goalie ran.. like flyers did to us....
- nh4442

Maybe that is the reason they are holding onto him. Getting some third and fourth round picks wouldn't be bad.