I think maclean realizes the mistake he made handling ice time this year, and HOPEFULLY given the fact that he managed to keep his job despite that, he wont' make the same mistake next year.
- sensarmy_11

That's commendable to realize the mistake, but if you get dealt the same roster minus 3 of your top 6 forwards from the previous season, without any replacements, you're almost forced to play them the same way no? People love to promote Turris and Zibby, but don't often realize you inherently promote crummier players as well, unless of course there are adequate replacements acquired, which our penny pinching owner, may not happen.

Hope to hell MacArthur doesn't regress like he did with the Leafs, hope Ryan resigns, hope Hoffman and Stone can be a top 6 wingers. Lots of question marks there. IMO
- ClarksonDavid

always question marks....part of hockey i guess

i'm still not convinced that carlyle didn't have A TON to do with macarthur's regression.....not to mention the regression of a few other players on your team.

mac's production declined, but probably has a lot to do with the fact that he was getting mostly 3rd line "shut down" minutes.............he still remained one of your best possession players every year.

i wouldn't be surprised if he regressed a little........as he was exceptional this year........but i dont' imagine we'll see the same type of regression there was in toronto. obviously it's possible, and i wouldn't flat out say it won't happen....but i believe that "real" macarthur is in fact the player we saw this year.

I don't know why the Blues would want him. he'd get destroyed in the East. too soft.

It's really only Greening that pisses me off. Well, Neil does too, but I see his value. Condra, as a 4th liner, I like.

Next year, I can see one of Lazar, DaCosta, or Prince making the team. Pageau could also crack the team too.

Realistically, we could have a full line of bingo players next year. (Incl Stone).
- Charliebox

Lazar may make the team, but is he going to be an impactful player? Look no further than Zibby and Turris who got spots early in their careers, but really didn't help the team all that much. Lazar will be a great player, but not next season.

Guys like Da Costa, Prince, Pag, etc are going to be bottom end guys. Defiantly not guys that will put this team to the next level. Our bottom six won't be all that impressive if the offseason plays out like many expect. Maybe I'm wrong and they play well and Greening and Neil go to 5-8 min per game, but I'm skeptical.

I don't know why the Blues would want him. he'd get destroyed in the East. too soft.
- ...sbs138...

West*

That's commendable to realize the mistake, but if you get dealt the same roster minus 3 of your top 6 forwards from the previous season, without any replacements, you're almost forced to play them the same way no? People love to promote Turris and Zibby, but don't often realize you inherently promote crummier players as well, unless of course there are adequate replacements acquired, which our penny pinching owner, may not happen.
- Gord_Wilson_2.0

are you talking about adequate replacements for spezza and hemsky.......or adequate replacements to take the minutes that neil and greening were getting?

if it's teh former, then i agree. there is nobody that will immediately replace what spezza does.....but i still maintain zibby will develop into an EXCELLENT hockey player.

as for the latter, i think you could argue that about 70-80% of the players currently in bingo would be better NHL players than those 2 plugs.

i think maclean saw first hand what happens when you ride a line that has smith anchored by neil and greening..........i HOPE he won't make that mistake again. hopefully he realizes that they're, at best, a 4th line (with the exception of smith, who's a good 3rd liner)....and deploy them accordingly.

assuming the top line is moved, and no forwards come back, i'd be happy going forward with a group of:

macarthur - turris - stone
hoffman - zibby - ryan
pageau - lazar - condra
greening - smith - neil (with hopefully this line getting the least amount of TOI)
grant/puempel

i think putting lazar with those 2 would be good, as they're both defensively responsible, and very good possession players, which would allow lazar to develop without the pressure of having his mistakes end up in the back of the net.

If that happens and the Sens benefit, then that's great for us. I just think St.Louis should be smarter than that. They kind of got a raw deal getting matched up with a team, who in my mind, is going to win the Cup. You can't overreact too much after loosing to one of the best. It's sort of like the Toronto mentality. They loose to the 2nd best team in the NHL last year and took them to 7 games, but go out and sign Clarkson and trade for Bernier. Things that didn't help and perhaps even hurt them.
- Gord_Wilson_2.0

Bernier was a solid move, Clarkson not so much.

Keith is career +125 ... Worst year of -11 in 05-06 and that year they were the worst team in the nhl
Karlsson is career -26 ... he was -30 in2010 and -26 this year

you have no argument. Keith is a better defenseman than karlsson.

Keith is career +125 ... Worst year of -11 in 05-06 and that year they were the worst team in the nhl
Karlsson is career -26 ... he was -30 in2010 and -26 this year

you have no argument. Keith is a better defenseman than karlsson.
- EnzoD

Yeah the fact that Ottawa's team differential has been about -80 since Karlsson's career started and Chicago's team differential has been about +250 since Keith's career started, has nothing to do with it.



what a dumb post.

BTW, I am not saying Karlsson is better. I am simply pointing out that just looking up +/- without context of what team the player plays for, is as dumb of an evaluation as it gets.

Yeah the fact that Ottawa's team differential has been about -80 since Karlsson's career started and Chicago's team differential has been about +200 since Keith's career started, has nothing to do with it.



what a dumb post.
- Charliebox

that's not a coincidence it is directly related to the #1 dmen of each team who play nearly half the game. And from 05-08 the hawks were a non-playoff team that selected #1 & #3 overall. The reason your team can't play defense is because you play with 4 forwards when karlsson is on the ice

When everything is done and the dust has settled the deal will be Kahdri and Clarkson for Jason Spezza.

are you talking about adequate replacements for spezza and hemsky.......or adequate replacements to take the minutes that neil and greening were getting?

if it's teh former, then i agree. there is nobody that will immediately replace what spezza does.....but i still maintain zibby will develop into an EXCELLENT hockey player.

as for the latter, i think you could argue that about 70-80% of the players currently in bingo would be better NHL players than those 2 plugs.

i think maclean saw first hand what happens when you ride a line that has smith anchored by neil and greening..........i HOPE he won't make that mistake again. hopefully he realizes that they're, at best, a 4th line (with the exception of smith, who's a good 3rd liner)....and deploy them accordingly.

assuming the top line is moved, and no forwards come back, i'd be happy going forward with a group of:

macarthur - turris - stone
hoffman - zibby - ryan
pageau - lazar - condra
greening - smith - neil (with hopefully this line getting the least amount of TOI)
grant/puempel

i think putting lazar with those 2 would be good, as they're both defensively responsible, and very good possession players, which would allow lazar to develop without the pressure of having his mistakes end up in the back of the net.
- sensarmy_11

I am talking about players that can play top 9 minutes. I think that's a bit optimistic about our bingo players and Lazar the way you have it. If Lazar becomes a good forward for us this year, that's a bonus, but naive to think he will at his age in my opinion. Guys like Pag, Prince, Da Costa, are certainly more skilled than Greening, Smith, and Neil, but don't exactly produce lights out numbers and can't dominate other teams bottoms six physically, which Mclean likes. I think we are getting away from my original point of saying if we don't trade for a forward in a Spezza deal and watch Michalek and Hemsky walk or depth takes a huge hit and guys who aren't NHL 3rd liners will be promoted there anyway. You can add in guys from within the organization, but it doesn't mean we are better off.

that's not a coincidence it is directly related to the #1 dmen of each team who play nearly half the game. And from 05-08 the hawks were a non-playoff team that selected #1 & #3 overall. The reason your team can't play defense is because you play with 4 forwards when karlsson is on the ice
- EnzoD

Yep, Towes, Kane, Sharp and Hossa, and the fact that Ottawa doesn't have one player as good as any of those guys, has nothing to do with it.

Oh, and the rest of the Chicago D. Forgot about them. Put Keith with Kuba or Methot or Cowen tell him to shutdown the league's best, then look at his +/-.

that's not a coincidence it is directly related to the #1 dmen of each team who play nearly half the game. And from 05-08 the hawks were a non-playoff team that selected #1 & #3 overall. The reason your team can't play defense is because you play with 4 forwards when karlsson is on the ice
- EnzoD

I think +/- reflects team play rather than individual play. The Olympics are a more accurate reflection of team play. You will recall Karlsson was properly named top D man at the Olympics.

Johnny Boychuck has been a +88 in 5 seasons.

Per season, his +/- is better than Keith's.

Chicago should trade Keith for Boychuck straight up, right?

When everything is done and the dust has settled the deal will be Kahdri and Clarkson for Jason Spezza.
- spatso

Id be okay with that deal just to get rid of Clarksons 6 more years.

Johnny Boychuck has been a +88 in 5 seasons.

Per season, his +/- is better than Keith's.

Chicago should trade Keith for Boychuck straight up, right?


- Charliebox

+/- is a great way to assess players

Johnny Boychuck has been a +88 in 5 seasons.

Per season, his +/- is better than Keith's.

Chicago should trade Keith for Boychuck straight up, right?


- Charliebox

shea Weber is career + 40. Besides Ryan suter he has had no stars to play with. I'm not saying karlsson isn't a great player. He's fun to watch and is gifted offensively. I'm just saying he isn't a complete player and if you want to build a championship team right now you build around Keith, Weber, chara or pietrangelo. Not karlsson or subban who are irresponsible defensively

+/- is a great way to assess players
- ClarksonDavid

its a pretty simple statistic of goals scored vs goals allowed. I'd say it is a good indicator of a players 200ft game and most NHL evaluators would agree.

When everything is done and the dust has settled the deal will be Kahdri and Clarkson for Jason Spezza.
- spatso

i wish there was a way to archive this post ......

shea Weber is career + 40. Besides Ryan suter he has had no stars to play with. I'm not saying karlsson isn't a great player. He's fun to watch and is gifted offensively. I'm just saying he isn't a complete player and if you want to build a championship team right now you build around Keith, Weber, chara or pietrangelo. Not karlsson or subban who are irresponsible defensively
- EnzoD

If you want to build a championship team, you have to have the right mix of players.

Letang won a championship
Coffey won multiple championships

its a pretty simple statistic of goals scored vs goals allowed. I'd say it is a good indicator of a players 200ft game and most NHL evaluators would agree.
- EnzoD

I'd say it's a terrible way. If your d partner has the puck and gives it away to someone for a breakaway and said player scores on the breakaway your a minus 1 and had nothing to do with the play. Same goes for getting a plus. Everyone from the other team would get a plus on that play for no reason. Terrible stat.

shea Weber is career + 40. Besides Ryan suter he has had no stars to play with. I'm not saying karlsson isn't a great player. He's fun to watch and is gifted offensively. I'm just saying he isn't a complete player and if you want to build a championship team right now you build around Keith, Weber, chara or pietrangelo. Not karlsson or subban who are irresponsible defensively
- EnzoD

So only players that spear and cheap shot others recklessly and are given kid gloves punishments are deemed worthy of the title franchise player?

http://www.youtube.com/re...y=duncan+keith+cheap+shot

If that's defensive responsibility, I hope Karlsson continues his career trajectory.

its a pretty simple statistic of goals scored vs goals allowed. I'd say it is a good indicator of a players 200ft game and most NHL evaluators would agree.
- EnzoD

Not necessarily.

If you're a big minus on a great team, then sure, it shows that you suck defensively.

On the flip side, if you're a big + on a poor team, then it shows you are great at both ends of the ice.

Unfortunately, there aren't many times that this applies. Year after year, the best +/- players are on the best teams.

Have a look for yourself. Scroll through the years.
http://www.nhl.com/ice/pl...lusMinus&viewName=summary

The best +/- of a non-playoff player is Kyle Turris at 28th in the league.

The best +/- of a non-playoff defenseman is Hamhuis at 79th overall (+13).

On a completely unrelated note, the NBA came out guns blazing today against one of its owners for very legitimate reasons.

http://www.tsn.ca/nba/story/?id=450749

Wonder if there's any way we could incite Melnyk to spout off about something on camera to get the same result...he'd probably say the fine would've been used to invest in players that is now being held hostage by the league.